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The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
#21
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 7:27 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(May 8, 2018 at 7:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The cycle of rain is discussed with great detail in the Quran:



The clouds are linked directly with the winds; indicating their light weight and movement as God pleases with the direction of the winds.
This is a great find if you have no science books that tell you about the cycle of the rain.

Another verse that discussed the matter:

I fail to see how the indicated verses even hint at a knowledge of the water cycle.  I think you're seeing what you want to see and ignoring the plain truth.

The bold part from the verse:

Quote:It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds


Wind stirs clouds. The only mysterious part of the rainfall cycle is how the clouds get created, though there are hints in the same verse about the Condensation process:
Quote: ( 48 )   It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky however He wills, and He makes them fragments so you see the rain emerge from within them.

I'm really really surprised that Mohammed concluded the Condensation of clouds; he literally said that rain is nothing but clouds becoming "fragments; i.e heavy; pieces". Isn't that what we recognize as gas to liquid ?

(May 8, 2018 at 7:55 am)Chad32 Wrote: People notice that the wind can push clouds, and that rain comes from clouds, and decided this is because of local god. praise be Allah/Jehovah/Zeus/Thor. Though maybe if they really knew how clouds form, and the cycle of evaporation and precipitation, then they might not claim a mystic source for it. Also this god's will, when it comes to rainfall, seems to also have a lot to do with geography. He must really love South America, famous for the amazon rainforest. Or Ireland, where Jackscepticeye claims it's always raining.

Attributing things to the wrong deity is a human trademark; I doubt that people in the past knew that "rain comes down when clouds become fragments".

(May 8, 2018 at 8:02 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(May 8, 2018 at 7:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The cycle of rain is discussed with great detail in the Quran:



The clouds are linked directly with the winds; indicating their light weight and movement as God pleases with the direction of the winds.
This is a great find if you have no science books that tell you about the cycle of the rain.

Another verse that discussed the matter:

Sorry Atlass, this doesn't prove in any modern sense the ancient world new anything close to what we know today about meteorology, weather or the atmosphere.

And I cannot repeat this enough. EVERY religion in the world, Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus all have those in their ranks, whom try to get science to point to their club.

I didn't claim that Mohammed peace be upon him had the blueprints of Atlantis, he couldn't even read. That's why it's pretty strange for a nomad like him to speak about the rain cycle and the condensation of clouds.

They might have authentic passages in their books; I never claimed the opposite. Ever read the Hindu stories of flying palaces? Maybe there was a very advanced civilization in the past, and they received revelation from God in the past but they were destroyed along with their civilization.

(May 8, 2018 at 10:21 am)robvalue Wrote: So what's your point? You should try a science book, it'll blow your mind Wink

Believe me I love them a lot.
Don't forget that I'm a software developer and I know my way around science. I wasn't a nerd; but I was okay.
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#22
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 8:09 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: ( 48 )   It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky however He wills, and He makes them fragments so you see the rain emerge from within them.

I'm really really surprised that Mohammed concluded the Condensation of clouds; he literally said that rain is nothing but clouds becoming "fragments; i.e heavy; pieces". Isn't that what we recognize as gas to liquid ?

I don't read Arabic, so I can't probe the meaning of the text further. It's not clear what he means when he says that "He makes them fragments," other than that perhaps he is simply repeating the theme from earlier in the verse about the wind causing the behavior of the clouds. The verse is ambiguous, and perhaps even ungrammatical (in English). It's not clear what his intended sense is. You're simply taking an interpretation that is convenient to your apologetic, but isn't really explicit in the text. That's a form of begging the question and renders your argument invalid. And again, is his observation really beyond the ken of someone in the seventh century?

Beyond that, you haven't even addressed the objections that Rob and myself made about your larger conclusions in the matter.
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#23
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 12:58 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'll take a stab at the unspoken implication here.

The people who wrote this book "knew" things that they couldn't reasonably have known about at their point of scientific development (zero). This means that the information is likely to have come from an external source.

This wouldn't be too bad, if it was to stop there. It would better to just say we don't know how they "knew" these things, but I'll settle for the above. But we all know that the further implications are going to be:

Since their information source was right about this thing (and whatever other examples), we should trust the rest of what the book has to say too.

Nope. That is hopelessly flawed thinking. You're in a position where you'll literally believe anything this source says, about any subject. That is a total surrender of all scepticism. It's reasonable to have confidence in someone speaking about a certain field of which they have demonstrated a very firm grasp, but to extend that to every word they have to say is not justified.

At the very best, we could say that we have some confidence that everything the source says has some credibility and is worth looking into. But as we all know, when viewed without the lens of prior belief, all these books come off as exactly the kind of ramblings you'd expect from a primitive culture with zero scientific knowledge. It's guesswork at best, and those wanting to find meaning just fill in the blanks.

The scale of the information given is the factor determining the size of trust. When the information revealed is huge; the trust increases too.
The Quran revealed a lot; the scale of what it revealed is the cause of the utter loyalty you see; i.e belief and faith.

There are reasons other than being convinced by "signs"; like what we see with tribalism and extremism because of racist causes; some people hold the faith and kill for it just because their tribe believe in it or so.. but the trust that comes because of observing signs is different, and with the Quran it is huge, because its revelation is huge.

(May 8, 2018 at 1:06 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Most ancient religions had a wind god.  Even now, when the FSM rises from the pot in a cloud of heavenly steam he cuts a fart which causes the wind to blow.

Haven't you figured out by now that no one is impressed with your fucking koran?

Come on Minimalist; I'm not trying to get impressions, believe me.

(May 8, 2018 at 1:14 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(May 8, 2018 at 12:58 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'll take a stab at the unspoken implication here.

The people who wrote this book "knew" things that they couldn't reasonably have known about at their point of scientific development (zero). This means that the information is likely to have come from an external source.

This wouldn't be too bad, if it was to stop there. It would better to just say we don't know how they "knew" these things, but I'll settle for the above. But we all know that the further implications are going to be:

Since their information source was right about this thing (and whatever other examples), we should trust the rest of what the book has to say too.

Nope. That is hopelessly flawed thinking. You're in a position where you'll literally believe anything this source says, about any subject. That is a total surrender of all scepticism. It's reasonable to have confidence in someone speaking about a certain field of which they have demonstrated a very firm grasp, but to extend that to every word they have to say is not justified.

At the very best, we could say that we have some confidence that everything the source says has some credibility and is worth looking into. But as we all know, when viewed without the lens of prior belief, all these books come off as exactly the kind of ramblings you'd expect from a primitive culture with zero scientific knowledge. It's guesswork at best, and those wanting to find meaning just fill in the blanks.

There's an even more fundamental error going on there.  They assume that because the person is right about something that they, presumably, shouldn't have had knowledge about, that it isn't simply unexplained, but rather that the source of their knowledge was an omniscient God.  Not only is this a non sequitur, but they are using this as the basis for believing other claims in the book, such as that Mohammed spoke to the angel Gabriel, based upon that non-sequitur, and using that as confirmation that the source of the things in the book was supernatural.  It's an incestuous little circle of one fallacious conclusion supporting another fallacious conclusion, which supports yet another fallacious conclusion, and so on.

It's not a conclusion or an assumption: it's a claim made by prophet Mohammed peace be upon him, that the Quran was revealed to him from God.
There is no room for assumption: the book is supposed to be authored by God himself; directly.
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#24
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
Quote:Where do you get the latest weather forecasts, from apps on your cell phone, or the Internet?

In ancient China, when people had no satellites, they relied on their direct observation and experiences.

And through years of observation, they accumulated a systematic knowledge of the relations between clouds and weather changes.

In The Book of Songs, the earliest collection of Chinese poems that were created from the Western Zhou Dynasty (c. 11th century-771 BC) to the Spring and Autumn Period (770-476 BC), it is recorded that if it will snow, the clouds in the sky often have the same color and similar thickness.

Thick and dense clouds in summer often herald the coming of heavy rain.

Li Zhao, an officer from the Tang Dynasty (618-907), used "artillery prime mover" to describe the clouds before the storm. He noted this kind of cloud has a flat bottom and a bumped top that looks like many steep hills.

There is also a saying, "when the clouds in the sky bear a shape of a castle, heavy rain will fall on the ground". The castle-shaped cloud also foretells the coming of a storm.

Sunny days can also be predicted from the clouds. Ancient Chinese believed clouds that look like scales indicates a nice day is coming.

Xiang Yu Shu (《相雨书》), a book written by Huang Zifa in the Tang Dynasty, collects many experiences and information on weather forecasts before the Tang. The book points out that if two colors, black and red, both appear in the clouds, it will hail. This description is still used by modern day forecasters.

Ancient Chinese wisdom used clouds to predict the weather
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#25
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 1:25 pm)pocaracas Wrote:
(May 8, 2018 at 7:13 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: The cycle of rain is discussed with great detail in the Quran:



The clouds are linked directly with the winds; indicating their light weight and movement as God pleases with the direction of the winds.
This is a great find if you have no science books that tell you about the cycle of the rain.

Another verse that discussed the matter:

You know the fundamental characteristic of a cycle is that it is cyclical...

In that book, winds move clouds, clouds produce rain, everyone rejoices...
But... how do you then get from everyone rejoices to winds and clouds, again?

As long as God exists; wind would exist. The cycle stops when God wants it to stop. That's the concept in the Quran; anyways.
And in the age, we discovered and saw when wind will stop: it's when our atmosphere cease to exist. We proved it.
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#26
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
I find it interesting that the belief in God comes first and the explanation for a natural occurrence comes second. This would be opposed to say, observing a natural event that is amazing and thinking there is a God.
But your individuality and your present need will be swept away by change, 
and what you now ardently desire will one day become the object of abhorrence. 
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#27
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 1:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: 8th century desert dwellers would have had to be stupid indeed not to notice that puffy white clouds do not bring rain but that dark gray clouds do.  Rainfall in a desert is an important event and one imagines they would have spent a lot of time noticing when it was likely and when it was not.

Don't need fucking allah as an explanation... any more than the Romans needed Boreas.

The condensation ? describing the clouds with that is quite accurate to what we know today; Romans didn't say that, not even closely; but this verse did.

(May 8, 2018 at 8:24 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(May 8, 2018 at 8:09 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: ( 48 )   It is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds and spread them in the sky however He wills, and He makes them fragments so you see the rain emerge from within them.

I'm really really surprised that Mohammed concluded the Condensation of clouds; he literally said that rain is nothing but clouds becoming "fragments; i.e heavy; pieces". Isn't that what we recognize as gas to liquid ?

I don't read Arabic, so I can't probe the meaning of the text further.  It's not clear what he means when he says that "He makes them fragments," other than that perhaps he is simply repeating the theme from earlier in the verse about the wind causing the behavior of the clouds.  The verse is ambiguous, and perhaps even ungrammatical (in English).  It's not clear what his intended sense is.  You're simply taking an interpretation that is convenient to your apologetic, but isn't really explicit in the text.  That's a form of begging the question and renders your argument invalid.  And again, is his observation really beyond the ken of someone in the seventh century?

Beyond that, you haven't even addressed the objections that Rob and myself made about your larger conclusions in the matter.

The Arabic word used for fragments is كسفاً , it literally means "pieces".

And this verse asserts that these pieces are heavy:

Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
( 57 )   And it is He who sends the winds as good tidings before His mercy until, when they have carried heavy clouds, We drive them to a dead land and We send down rain therein and bring forth thereby [some] of all the fruits. Thus will We bring forth the dead; perhaps you may be reminded.

I don't see how it defies English grammar. It's describing a phenomena.
It's explicit -and literally mentioned in the verse- that wind is the carrier of clouds, and clouds rain when they're heavy. If I was in the 7th century, I won't know that clouds rain due to turning to a heavier material -i.e water due to condensation -.

The verses are clear to me: winds carry clouds. When clouds are heavy they rain.

The objection of Rob & you is in my reply:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-54830-p...pid1751375

Quote: The scale of the information given is the factor determining the size of trust. When the information revealed is huge; the trust increases too.
The Quran revealed a lot; the scale of what it revealed is the cause of the utter loyalty you see; i.e belief and faith.

There are reasons other than being convinced by "signs"; like what we see with tribalism and extremism because of racist causes; some people hold the faith and kill for it just because their tribe believe in it or so.. but the trust that comes because of observing signs is different, and with the Quran it is huge, because its revelation is huge.

The book revealed huge things, so it gained the trust of its followers. Even if it claimed that a God exists.
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#28
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
But wouldn't it be better if the authors of the Quran Wrote:The water cycle involves the exchange of energy, which leads to temperature changes. When water evaporates, it takes up energy from its surroundings and cools the environment. When it condenses, it releases energy and warms the environment. These heat exchanges influence climate.

The evaporative phase of the cycle purifies water which then replenishes the land with freshwater. The flow of liquid water and ice transports minerals across the globe. It is also involved in reshaping the geological features of the Earth, through processes including erosion and sedimentation. The water cycle is also essential for the maintenance of most life and ecosystems on the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cycle
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#29
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
(May 8, 2018 at 9:06 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The condensation ? describing the clouds with that is quite accurate to what we know today; Romans didn't say that, not even closely; but this verse did.

Absurd.  The greeks had a detailed understanding of meteorology a thousand years before magic book was written (they invented the term, lol).  What with the authors of magic book having a demonstrable affinity for stealing greek work verbatim..it;s a wonder they didn;t get clouds wrong exactly where the greeks got clouds wrong, too.  

Similarly, the romans knew a hell of alot more about weather and clouds than contained in that ridiculous snippet...how else do you think they managed their municipal water supplies?

Sure, both the greeks and the romans told ludicrous stories about gods and weather..but no more or less ludcrous than idea that god is physically separating clouds to make it rain.

We know that;s not how rain works....so....allah akbar....I guess?
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#30
RE: The Quran stressing on the link between winds and clouds: rain
No mention of evaporation and how water on the surface gets recycled? No mention of the role of the sun? To say that winds spread clouds is pretty obvious and not scientific at all. But worry not, soon the english translations will have the word evaporation and a bit more scientific details in them. They just need to sneak it in their when no one is looking.
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