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New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
#21
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 2:16 pm)The Industrial Atheist Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 1:14 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Is it just an angry atheists thing?    Because I don't what you say here, following from what you said previously.


What?   I think that you are imposing a lot of bias here, and your view of the other side is grossly inaccurate.   But then again, I don't see that the abortion issue has anything to do with oppressing women/mothers.   I think that it is about not supporting the killing of innocent babies with poor justification and reasons  to do so.

Fetuses (and Zygotes)are not babies. Christians are taught to call them that/think of them as that. I think this kind of obfuscates matters. I think it's hard to come to the conclusion that abortion is immoral without believing in things like predestination and god in general.

Thing is, if every fertilized egg cell is a baby, with a destiny, does that mean that god had a destiny for the fertilized egg cells that were lost during menstruation? Seems kind of wasteful for a perfect god. That also means he designed abortion into the natural functioning of women's bodies

I think that a pretty good case can be made for calling a fetus a baby.  There is nothing within the definition of "baby", that prohibits it, and it is quite common, even among doctors I have found, to call the growing fetus a baby.  So I don't see where that is obfuscating things at all;  and it sometimes seems, that proponents of abortion want to call it a fetus, to de-humanize it.  I'm will to compromise, and call it a separate and distinct human being, if you want to be technical.  We can even add fetus in there, if it makes you feel better.

As, to your comment about being unable to come to the conclusion that abortion is wrong without believing in God.   I would ask, how you come to such moral conclusions for an older child or an adult?   Some would say that you cannot have a basis for any objective morals without God. 

Your last paragraph seems to be, what they call over at the uncommon descent blog whataboutism (or whataboutery).  It's a varient of the tu quoque fallacy, where in place of an argument or reason, one tries to shift the subject to something else and try to show some kind of hypocrisy rather than refute the logic.     This one, I think is particularly bad, because with similar reasoning, it would also folllow, that because people die from disease and accidents, that it is also ok to murder people without justification.   I don't think anyone is arguing either (unless you are advocating it).

(May 14, 2018 at 2:17 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 1:14 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Is it just an angry atheists thing?    Because I don't what you say here, following from what you said previously.


What?   I think that you are imposing a lot of bias here, and your view of the other side is grossly inaccurate.   But then again, I don't see that the abortion issue has anything to do with oppressing women/mothers.   I think that it is about not supporting the killing of innocent babies with poor justification and reasons  to do so.

Your idea of what differentiate a baby from  a cloud of tissue that can exorcised with nary a look  is based purely on an ignorant religious fiction concocted during the Bronze Age to overawe the ignorant, illiterate and gullible so that the priests, prophets and other hucksters can dominate and profit.

Nope... that must be your idea, because I said nothing of the sort!
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#22
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
There's a big difference between a 9 month old fetus and a 1 day old fetus. The way theists say there isn't is just silly.
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#23
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 12:01 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 11:54 am)Minimalist Wrote: Balls.  It's about using pregnancy to oppress women.

Republicunts and xhristards are fine with doing that.

So you think that motherhood is oppression?  Do you think that we should up the abortion limit, until they are out of the house?

Motherhood by choice, certainly not. But forcing women to have kids when they don't want them creates a generation of abused and unwanted children.

Unfortunately, when these clowns get their foot in the door, the next laws are likely to ban abortion altogether, including for victims of rape and incest.
Dying to live, living to die.
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#24
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 3:55 pm)Hammy Wrote: There's a big difference between a 9 month old fetus and a 1 day old fetus. The way theists say there isn't is just silly.

When it gets to the point of being a fetus, at about 8 weeks, the differences aren't as great as you might think.  By 10 weeks i believe that 90% of systems are in place (going from memory here).  I'm assuming what you mean, is that 1 day after conception is no different.  In which case, I would recommend that you ask, in what way that they mean that.  Personally I'm am in disbelief, that much of anyone would  try to say that it is every way.   However science can show that pretty much immediately there is a distinct life that is formed.

(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 12:01 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So you think that motherhood is oppression?  Do you think that we should up the abortion limit, until they are out of the house?

Motherhood by choice, certainly not.  But forcing women to have kids when they don't want them creates a generation of abused and unwanted children.

Wouldn't the same reasoning follow at 3 weeks after birth?   What about later?  What about adults who are abused or unwanted?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#25
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
It's all about controlling women.

You know how I know? Because nobody gives a fuck about the mother. Nobody gives a fuck about the child once they're born either. They don't even really give a fuck when it's a fetus. All they care about is telling women what they can and can't do. That's why we don't have mandated paid maternity leave. It's why we don't have anything for prenatal care. It's why they don't want anyone to have easy and free access to birth control.

They care about life until it's inconvenient for them. Namely when it's costing them something. Force the woman to give birth against her will, but then let the child starve to death because fuck them we're not giving them food stamps.
"Tradition" is just a word people use to make themselves feel better about being an asshole.
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#26
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: When it gets to the point of being a fetus, at about 8 weeks, the differences aren't as great as you might think.  By 10 weeks i believe that 90% of systems are in place (going from memory here).  I'm assuming what you mean, is that 1 day after conception is no different.  In which case, I would recommend that you ask, in what way that they mean that.  Personally I'm am in disbelief, that much of anyone would  try to say that it is every way.   However science can show that pretty much immediately there is a distinct life that is formed.

When life is form is different to when acute sentience is formed. Is a 1 day old fetus capable of suffering?
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#27
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 3:55 pm)Hammy Wrote: There's a big difference between a 9 month old fetus and a 1 day old fetus. The way theists say there isn't is just silly.

When it gets to the point of being a fetus, at about 8 weeks, the differences aren't as great as you might think.  By 10 weeks i believe that 90% of systems are in place (going from memory here).  I'm assuming what you mean, is that 1 day after conception is no different.  In which case, I would recommend that you ask, in what way that they mean that.  Personally I'm am in disbelief, that much of anyone would  try to say that it is every way.   However science can show that pretty much immediately there is a distinct life that is formed.

(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Motherhood by choice, certainly not.  But forcing women to have kids when they don't want them creates a generation of abused and unwanted children.

Wouldn't the same reasoning follow at 3 weeks after birth?   What about later?  What about adults who are abused or unwanted?

That's ridiculous. It really is.
Dying to live, living to die.
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#28
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 4:47 pm)Divinity Wrote: It's all about controlling women.

You know how I know?  Because nobody gives a fuck about the mother.  Nobody gives a fuck about the child once they're born either.  They don't even really give a fuck when it's a fetus.  All they care about is telling women what they can and can't do.  That's why we don't have mandated paid maternity leave.  It's why we don't have anything for prenatal care.  It's why they don't want anyone to have easy and free access to birth control.  

They care about life until it's inconvenient for them.  Namely when it's costing them something.  Force the woman to give birth against her will, but then let the child starve to death because fuck them we're not giving them food stamps.

Ok... I don't agree with any of that.   And I don't think that it represents a lot of people, who are against abortion.  FYI!

(May 14, 2018 at 4:50 pm)Hammy Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: When it gets to the point of being a fetus, at about 8 weeks, the differences aren't as great as you might think.  By 10 weeks i believe that 90% of systems are in place (going from memory here).  I'm assuming what you mean, is that 1 day after conception is no different.  In which case, I would recommend that you ask, in what way that they mean that.  Personally I'm am in disbelief, that much of anyone would  try to say that it is every way.   However science can show that pretty much immediately there is a distinct life that is formed.

When life is form is different to when acute sentience is formed. Is a 1 day old fetus capable of suffering?

The evidence seems to keep moving back, for where a fetus seems to be able to feel sensations.  I think that it is around the beginning time in development, that the little human is a fetus that they do feel pain and other sensations.  Would you say, that it is permissible murder another human being, as long as they do not feel the pain in doing so?   I can understand the moral implications, if someone is killing and specifically, increasing the suffering, but I don't think that it is only wrong to kill other humans, only if they suffer in doing so.  Do you?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#29
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 4:51 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 4:47 pm)Divinity Wrote: It's all about controlling women.

You know how I know?  Because nobody gives a fuck about the mother.  Nobody gives a fuck about the child once they're born either.  They don't even really give a fuck when it's a fetus.  All they care about is telling women what they can and can't do.  That's why we don't have mandated paid maternity leave.  It's why we don't have anything for prenatal care.  It's why they don't want anyone to have easy and free access to birth control.  

They care about life until it's inconvenient for them.  Namely when it's costing them something.  Force the woman to give birth against her will, but then let the child starve to death because fuck them we're not giving them food stamps.

Ok... I don't agree with any of that.   And I don't think that it represents a lot of people, who are against abortion.  FYI!

A lot of people are against abortion because they bought the bill of goods pushed on them by Christianity. Christianity wanted to interfere in woman’s reproductive rights because it:

1. Offers a wedge issue to allow it to stand for something and thus retain a claim to people’s devotion,
2. always felt more poor and unedcated children the more easily Christianity can aggrandize itself
3. About man telling woman what to do. It is not that woman doing it is important in itself. It is that men getting women to do it that is important.
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#30
RE: New Iowa Law Restricts Abortion To Before Most Women Know They're Pregnant
(May 14, 2018 at 4:50 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:
(May 14, 2018 at 4:03 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: When it gets to the point of being a fetus, at about 8 weeks, the differences aren't as great as you might think.  By 10 weeks i believe that 90% of systems are in place (going from memory here).  I'm assuming what you mean, is that 1 day after conception is no different.  In which case, I would recommend that you ask, in what way that they mean that.  Personally I'm am in disbelief, that much of anyone would  try to say that it is every way.   However science can show that pretty much immediately there is a distinct life that is formed.


Wouldn't the same reasoning follow at 3 weeks after birth?   What about later?  What about adults who are abused or unwanted?

That's ridiculous.  It really is.

Glad that we agree!
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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