Evolution's reason for God

[Ephrium]

So we here believe in evolution. However, what evolution advantage gave rise to God in the first place, and why did evolution select it to pulmugate(sp) until the far great majority of humans in the world believe in at least 1 religion(>80%).

We all know too that religion is not merely a theory: People are willing and have died for it, others have devoted their entire existence to it.

Scientifict tests have also shown that when buddhist monks or christians go deep into prayer, their brains show an altered state.

Many Christians feel they talk to God too, via prayer.

It is not merely a theory, but something in their brain and hence, genes.

I know also of people,who, despite having no idea what Evolution is, and despite having no explanation of how the universe popped into being, refused to believe in any religion.



I have thought over a long time but cannot really think of much or perhaps any reason why evolution choose god. If there is any factors, a believe in god is an Evolution DISadvantage.

Typically, God believing cultures devote much time and significant resources to things which does not contribute to passing of the gene. Eg. the time spent praying and worshipping can be used for getting more food or mating.

In ancient cultures..Look at the resources spent getting the pyramids up. I have no idea how this contributes to spreading their genes.

I do not even need to mention that somehow, many forms of religion have rules AGAINST rampant proceating.

Hence why does 'God'flourish so much? Why Evolution pick God to flourish? Why hasn't evolution wiped out God, by wiping out cultures which wasted precious resources as compared to other cultures which did not waste them on God? I have not much idea.

[Eilonnwy]

We must first always remember that evolution favors characteristics that help survival, but that doesn't mean there perfect and benign changes can be cultivated to later be disadvantageous. Take for example Vitamin C. Most animals produce their own Vitamin C so they don't have to eat it. Humans can't produce Vitamin C so if they don't eat it they get scurvy. Turns out we have the gene to produce vitamin c but it's broken. Possibly broken because when mutations happened that broke it, it may have been benign because the diet held enough fruit and so the animals didn't die and propgated the gene. Eventually the gene just stopped working so that everyone became dependant on getting Vitamin C through food. The apes, our common ancestor, have this same problem. So here's an example of a disadvantageous evolution.

We know religion probably started out as animism and evolved into what we have today. Dawkin's has a great possible explanation in The God Delusion for how religion could have happened as a byproduct. For example, a child has a evolved to trust his parents completely. If a child is told not to venture into a river because it's infested with crocodiles, that child can't afford to test it out. It dies. So the dependency upon parents has evolved to keep children alive to have it's own offspring, for which it will give the same instruction. But at the same time that trust can be abused (unknowingly or knowingly) to say there's a demon in that river. It's not true, but that belief persists and thus a myth is born.

Given the fact that human's used to so desperately lack any reasonable explanation of the sun rising every morning, and how it rains and contribute to that our ability to misinterpret and embelish facts, it's no wonder these supersitious religions developed. There real mystery is why they persist when everything once attributed to god is proven tp be scientificly explained.

[leo-rcc]

I don't like the claim "believing in evolution". I accept the evidence that science has gathered, and that evidence confirms the Theory of Evolution through natural selection. But should new evidence arrive that renders that previous evidence null and void we would not hold on to that theory and find another explanation.

As for Evolutions "reason for God" (another phrase I don't like at all, evolution has no "reason").

Gods are credited with creating and controlling things we didn't understand at the time. If something is beyond your ability to understand, by explaining it away (God did it) you can move on to something else - something that is not outside your present ability to understand correctly. If we did not do that we'd be stuck trying to explain lightning but never succeeding because we never move past it to explain electricity first and come back to lightning later. It allows us to postpone a decision on something far out of reach, and learn about and explain correctly those things which are within our intellectual reach - and that is an evolutionary advantage for use of a god.

Today we no longer need gods to provide these stop-gap explanations - partly because science moves so fast nowadays, but also because the track record of the gods is so miserable. But beliefs passed on from father to son, from tribe to tribe, from country to country, for centuries to millennia, are not that easily dismissed.

As science progresses and more explanations are found, the role gods play become less. From a specific personal anthropomorphic god gods became more and more an untangeble obscure supernatural formless something. A cosmic finetuner, a string creator, a first cause. It is nothing like the god as found in the Torah, Bible or Quran.

[lukec]

Eilonnwy mentioned what I was about to- Dawkins touches on this subject a little bit himself in Delusion. In the same chapter he also discusses how he doesn't really agree with group selection, which is kind of what you're getting at- "I have no idea how this contributes to spreading their genes."

I'll take a stab at this, though I have not really researched it much.

Leo's right, of course, that evolution did not have God as a goal in mind as humans were evolving. However, it would definitely make sense that the genes of a cohesive family would become more numerous than a family whose members didn't bother to help each other. So, if it was advantageous for a tribe (who share many similar genes) to share a common set of beliefs, the tendency to believe what the others in your group believe would be selected for. Of course, this is said in broad terms, and has many factors- as Eilonnwy points out, the fact that children (and adults, but formatively children) are very receptive to statements weighted with authority would certainly be one. It is also advantageous to understand that other people have minds as well. However, this ability to imagine others beyond the self can be appropriated by belief in a deity, spirit, etc. So that could be another factor of the selections for religion.

So back to how exactly a set of beliefs which, as you point out, seems to be against "rampant procreating" (excellent choice of words, btw) is able to spread and persist for so long? Well, if these evolved tendencies, such as believing what one is told, going with the group, etc, are in a sense taken over by religion, it is easy to see that religion could have been only a side-effect of other bits of human evolution. That said, could religion actually help a specific group survive?

I find myself wondering if that is even the right question. Perhaps it is important to consider that not only does the religion help the group survive, but does the group help the religion survive? Surely it is as important. After all, you can consider religion in an evolutionary context as well, can you not? Even now many facets of Christianity (as an example) are evolving away from the fire and brimstone speeches to a more docile stance. So, one must not look only at the benefits of being in a religious tribe, but also whether that religion has what it takes to survive.

So are there in fact benefits that stem from being religious? I think there must be, on a group level. You mentioned the procreation thing- how it's odd that a society could benefit from tenets which restrict mating. Well, I think that's really only in the priesthood (still taking christianity as an example) and fairly recent. I mean, you could have several wives and all that in the OT, could you not? However, there are numerous examples in the bible of killing the men of a rival group, and taking the women of that tribe. Sounds like a good way to spread a particular view. I'm sure there are other examples but all of a sudden my toes are freezing. Back in a bit.

[Demonaura]

ok I just skimmed over the last few posts but, I should mention. Evolution doesn't care what you are. It does not favor anything or anything. Evolution is the process that allows a simple organisim to become complex, or increase in complexity. This however is not a beleif, I do not beleive in evolution as it does not require faith. Looking at the evidence I agree with the majority of scientists that it is indeed fact and treat it as such. If real evidence appeared to make me doubt it I would do so quite quickly, and if we found conclusive evidence to disprove it or prove an alternative then I would throw the idea of evolution away in seconds.

What you are thinking of is Darwins theory of natural selection where species with an advantage over others have higher odds of surviving and thus, spread. Creatures less fit for the environment are not able to keep up and become extinct while this new species lives on. Now, this only affects genes. God is not a genetic trait, nor is beleif in a god. So it is completely unaffected by natural selection. Unless you view it on a social scale in which case humans that beleive in a god may be more likely to survive in place of other humans due to things like teamwork. I doubt this as they seem just as likely to blow each other up than work together.

Scientifict tests have also shown that when buddhist monks or christians go deep into prayer, their brains show an altered state.

I go into an altered state of mind too, everytime I sleep, drink alchohol or even just get really ticked off at the jerkoff who cut me off while driving. Of course focusing your mind on a single though affects your thought patterns, every thing you do does in one way or another.

I know also of people,who, despite having no idea what Evolution is, and despite having no explanation of how the universe popped into being, refused to believe in any religion.

Because it does not matter if you know what evolution/natural selection is to realise that nobody talks back when you pray.

Now, the last half of your post I agree with. It IS a disadvantage to our species survival. As for it's cause, well I think Richard Dawkins did a great chapter on it in his book 'The God Delusion' and I'd definately reccomend reading it.

Basically (this is mostly me now, not Dawkins) all humans, as social animals have certain socal needs. We have a desire to have others watching out for us, we desire companions and we desire goals.

Well, nothing better than a all-powerful, all-knowing force of everything to watch out for you. The problem is that there isn't one, so if you beleive in one I ask the question: Would you rather be on fire and know about it so you can save your life, despite injury? Or would you prefer to burn in ignorance of the fire? Guess what fire is a symbol for!

Companionship comes from the church, it's like the elite social club in town and all you have to do to be a member is pray before dinner and show up on Sunday morning! Wow that's a pretty sweet deal! But wait, what if I don't beleive as they do? Then suddenly I will realise they do not actually like me. They only liked me because I gave them money and sang songs with them.

As for goals, this is the hard part for most potential atheists. Why are we here? Well that's the BEST part about being an atheist! I can choose to do what I want with my life! I for example, do not spend my entire life enduring it as the ultimate test of faith, no no no I want to live life and love! I want to become a teacher and pass on the wonderfull knowledge of our people! Or become a scientist and learn the great secrets of the universe!


Now I think this post is long enough already, thank you btw. You totally gave me the topic for my next Youtube video!

[lukec]

Demon- you're mostly right on, as far as I can tell, with what you're talking about. I'd just like to point out that genes are not the only things that evolves, and here I'm thinking of language, memes, etc. And just wording issues- natural selection certainly DOES favor "things," in the case of biological evolution, the things favored are traits which allow an organism to survive.

When ephrium brought up the "altered state of mind" bit, immediately it brought to mind the "God module," supposed to be the part of the brain which lights up when a person thinks of religion. And I think that's more what ephrium is wondering about. Exactly why did we evolve as a species with this tendency to believe in the supernatural? You say that it could not have any positive effects, "as they seem just as likely to blow each other up than work together," but since humans are, it seems, genetically burdened with this trait of "believing" there must've been some evolutionary reason for it.

[Demonaura]

You are right, other things do evolve. I should have been more specific in that I thought he was speaking of biological evolution.

Though I guess I didn't express myself quite right. While beleif in a religion does have good things that come from it, I beleive they are far outweighed by the bad things they give, thus I class religion as a whole as a bad thing.

I guess my stance would be that I don't think it IS an evolved (biologically) thing really so, my points look for other anwers. We could, as a society remove religion (and even the supernatural) without evolving biologically at all but, I can see where we would still desire there to be more to the world as that is another of our desires. That which we cannot reach.

Most likely from my view it is just so engrained into our society that it seems to be a natural part of us. People talk about the 'god sized hole' and how nothing else can fill it but, maybe we're just using one big square to fill the space four smaller squares would normally fill.

Thanks for bringing up my post though, I don't think I gave quite the message I was intending.

[DD_8630]

So we here believe in evolution. However, what evolution advantage gave rise to God in the first place, and why did evolution select it to pulmugate(sp) until the far great majority of humans in the world believe in at least 1 religion(>80%).

It's quite simple, really: religion is a by-product of the human mind's ability to see patterns in nature (even when none exist), and its tendency to put unequivocal trust in its ancestors.

Consider: over the aeons, people have tried to explain this, that, and the other. Before scientific methodology and systematic experimentation proved their worth, and old guess was enough to convince people.

Now, over time, a great many ideas were proposed. Of those, people were more receptive to some than others. Specifically, people flocked to those ideas which seemingly explained everything: baffling phenomena (thunder, rain, crop growth, etc) were the work of gods and spirits, evil is the work of evil gods and evil spirits, etc. These appealed to people because they seemed airtight. Our pattern-recognising brains saw analogies between the malicious works of humans and the cruel acts of nature, and put two and two together.

And because we intuitively trust our elders (parents, etc), their beliefs become our beliefs. Thus, those ideas which appeal to us and make intuitive sense to us are spread throughout the population.

Much like the evolution of beneficial traits.

We all know too that religion is not merely a theory: People are willing and have died for it, others have devoted their entire existence to it.

Scientifict tests have also shown that when buddhist monks or christians go deep into prayer, their brains show an altered state.

Many Christians feel they talk to God too, via prayer.

It is not merely a theory, but something in their brain and hence, genes.

Not everything that goes on in our brains is due to our genes. Our genes determine how the brain processes incoming information, but it doesn't determine the information itself.

I know also of people,who, despite having no idea what Evolution is, and despite having no explanation of how the universe popped into being, refused to believe in any religion.

I have thought over a long time but cannot really think of much or perhaps any reason why evolution choose god. If there is any factors, a believe in god is an Evolution DISadvantage.

Typically, God believing cultures devote much time and significant resources to things which does not contribute to passing of the gene. Eg. the time spent praying and worshipping can be used for getting more food or mating.

Notice, however, that those cultures with a consistent deficiency of crops, water, fertility, etc, have gods and rituals who promote crop growth, rainfall, and human reproduction. It is only in societies where these fundamental needs are met that more sophisticated theology can develop.

In ancient cultures..Look at the resources spent getting the pyramids up. I have no idea how this contributes to spreading their genes.

I do not even need to mention that somehow, many forms of religion have rules AGAINST rampant proceating.

Hence why does 'God'flourish so much? Why Evolution pick God to flourish? Why hasn't evolution wiped out God, by wiping out cultures which wasted precious resources as compared to other cultures which did not waste them on God? I have not much idea.

Evolution doesn't 'wipe out God' because, to some degree, religion is beneficial: it is very very good at providing societal cohesion. This is important because, when competing against other societies, it is the more stable one which survives.

[allan175]

This is actually something that popped into my head while watching "Madagascar 2" the other day! There are spoilers below so don't read any further if you haven't seen the film but want to.

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Towards the end of the film the lemur(?) king finally gets a sacrifice into the volcano and climbs back up to the top to see if what he had suggested worked. Coincidentally that was when Alex & co managed to get water back to the watering hole so the king immediately says "I've done it!". The "god hypothesis" that he put forward earlier had proven itself to be true (in his mind).

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I'd say a few coincidences like that in a primitive world would be the birth of a religion. The fact that building a huge pyramid doesn't *directly* contribute to the gene pool doesn't matter, at the start of that particular burial belief there would have been a coincidence that started it off which made people think "If I *don't* do that then terrible things might happen!".