Massacre of the Innocents

[Amarok]

The nativity scene the realistic version 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/brai...e-accurate

[Huggy Bear]

Yes, Huggy.  And years ago when reading through one of his books I was astonished to learn that he thinks the gospels are "evidence." 

Ehrman is a man who has made an entire career out of shitting on the reliability and authenticity of your fucking holy horseshit..... but then he thinks he can suddenly turn around and say that he can extract certain bits of history from what is, effectively, religious propaganda.

I have more respect for Carrier who began by thinking that there was at least a basic man behind the jesus legend and after studying the matter and all the evidence came to the conclusion that it is all horseshit.  Jesus is no more real than Romulus or Perseus.  Mythic horseshit designed to fool the ignorant.

But neither of them have any fucking use for your miracle bullshit and jesus, if you strip away the miracles, would at best be some shlepper who got himself killed.
Big fucking deal.

*Emphasis mine*

You sure that's the narrative you want to paint?

Your boy Richard Carrier began to receive funding by Atheist groups, hence why his stance changed all of a sudden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier

Carrier was initially not interested in the question of the historicity of Jesus. Like many others his first thought was that it was a fringe conspiracy topic not worthy of academic inquiry; however a number of different people requested that he investigate the subject and raised money for him to do so. Since then he has become a leading expert on the Jesus ahistoricity theory.

Funny how that works...

His blog appeared on Freethought Blogs and he has frequently been a featured speaker at various skeptic, secular humanist, freethought and atheist conventions, such as the annual Freethought Festival in Madison, Wisconsin, the annual Skepticon convention in Springfield, Missouri and conventions sponsored by American Atheists.

You would accept any "historians" conclusion that had thiest money backing him, so why should any one accept Carrier's conclusions?

More from Carriers own blog.
http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2008/...ctors.html

Now I need a job. Even at best there won't be any academic positions available until Fall (and more realistically I might not find a position until 2009), but we've been stuck in debt for several years now and I'd like to clear it sooner rather than later. Our monthly expenses would drop immensely if we did,and this would substantially improve our situation. My wife would be very happy. And so would I. So I have an audacious proposal. It probably won't happen, especially in this present economy. But as Jack Burton said when he took a futile shot at the psychic eye monster in Lo Pan's underground lair, "Well, you never know until you try!"

Here's my proposal. In the past, generous private benefactors, on their own initiative, have paid me substantially to research and write various online works (such as Why I Am Not a Christian and Was Christianity Too Improbable to Be False). Could there be anyone else out there willing to fund my work? I'd like to find several benefactors, like those who've approached me before, with similar resources and interests, who would love to pool together to pay me to undertake a serious project over the next four months. That project can be anything, whatever this group most wants to see me complete this year. I'm open to suggestions (from those who really do have a mind to fund a project). But I'll use the following as a prominent example.

Hey, he even has a patron page...

https://www.patreon.com/DrRichardCarrier

[Minimalist]

Of course, you lack the balls to read his book.

It would scare the ever-loving shit out of you... and that would be quite a pile of shit!

[Pat Mustard]

crucifixion ordered by Pilate actually happened;

Why? It's probably the most far fetched of the mundane aspects of the Yeshua mythology, unless he was an early zealot rebel whose uprising got cut from the book.

[sdelsolray]

You and all who kudos you haven't seen it and do not know what it's about, so bug off little minded one.
...

This one is angry, afraid and willfully ignorant.  That's a bad recipe.  Although I haven't dealt poster Godscreated much, if at all, since I joined this forum, I am beginning to understand the disdain and impatience that long time members show towards poster Godscreated.

...
You have even contradicted yourself in the last two posts to me. You said the Magi would have known that the star would have stopped over the city in your last post and the one before you said it stopping point would be from a certain perspective, it would be according to where one was as to where the star would appear to have stopped. Spacial concept I believe you were spouting.
...

I spent time trying to provide useful astronomical and geographical information to poster Godscreated.  Perhaps I did not explain things well, but it appears much more likely that he has poor reading comprehension or is flat-out lying.

Here is everything I wrote in this thread about the Star of Bethlehem topic:

"Due to the Earth's rotation relative to the solar system's and galaxy's ecliptic planes, following a star (as in walking exactly in the direction of the star) does not work very well.  Over a night, you will end up walking in a semi-circle, not in a straight line.  There are two reasons for this:

1)  The star appears to move during the night because of the Earth's rotation; and

2)  The tilt of the Earth's axis (again, relative to the plane of the solar system's and the Milky Way's ecliptics) makes the star appear to change orientation when compared to any terrestrial direction.  For example, the star Sirius (often considered the Star of the Magi in the Biblical literature) will point due East but only on certain days and at certain times.  On other days and at different times it will not point due East.  And, of course, as night passes that star faces South then West.

One other point.  At no time during the year does Sirius appear directly overhead when the observer is in the Middle East (or anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere).  That only occurs at about 17º S latitude (e.g., Fiji Islands)."

"You not only need an education in astronomy but you also need one in geography.

The Magi first travelled "from the East" to Jerusalem.  Any star or the planets Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (including these planets in apparent retrograde motion) would rise in the East and appear to travel across the sky during the night and set in the West.  Thus, the "star" would not set "past the horizon where the town was" (your words).  It would set behind the Magi as they travelled East towards Jerusalem.

After arriving in Jerusalem they continued to follow the same star which (according to the story) led them to Bethlehem.  However, Bethlehem is basically about 10 miles due South of Jerusalem.  Again, that star would set in the West, not the South.

As to the two inferior plants relative to the Earth, Mercury and Venus, they will either appear in the West at sundown and set shortly after that, or appear in the East shortly before sunrise and disappear from view when the sun rises.  So, it is possible that either Mercury or Venus could have acted as a guide for the Magi on their journey East to Jerusalem, but only in the early morning before dawn.  Neither planet would guide anyone traveling South.

But don't be sad.  Fictional stories often do not follow reality."

"A planet demonstrating apparent retrograde motion will not stop in the sky.  It will appear to move across the sky from East to West due to the Earth's rotation, just like any star does.

Planets appear to change there location in the night sky relative to stars (i) because of their own orbits around the sun and (ii) (in the case of apparent retrograde motion) because of the parallax effect of the Earth's orbit around the sun relative to the particular plant's orbit around the sun.  Such apparent retrograde motion takes weeks to months to cycle.

How long did it take the Magi to walk 10 miles from Jerusalem to Bethlehem?  Why did they travel at night and not during the day?"

"The planet did not stop.  Yes, many folks back then certainly knew more about stellar and planetary apparent motions than you do.  Of course, writers of fiction do not necessarily have to comport with reality."

"I provided basic astronomical and geographical facts.  Your video ignores them, as do you.  In addition, your video is full of speculation and nonsense, all acting as infantile apologetics for certain religious wishful thinking.

You choose to rely on nonsense instead of reality."

I simply cannot understand how someone can read these statements and conclude that either (1) "You said the Magi would have known that the star would have stopped over the city" (Godscreated's claim #1) or (2) "you said it stopping point would be from a certain perspective, it would be according to where one was as to where the star would appear to have stopped" (Godscreated's claim #2).  

Godscreated's near total ignorance of basic astronomy is pathetic and sad.

...
Well you see God knew when He created the universe were those magi would be when the star stopped and from there spacial vantage point it was over the city just as God had plan thousands of years prior to the event.
...

Ah yes, poster Godscreated attempted to be all sciency to support his Star of Bethlehem myth by using that apologetic and disingenuous video and when that is refuted with simple and basic astronomy and geography, he pulls out the, 'Well, my sky fairy used magic...so there!'

Poster Godscreated is yet another unfortunate example of a deeply indoctrinated theist who has sacrificed intellectual honesty and curiosity in favor of maintaining some perverted emotional and psychological disorders.

Again, pathetic and sad.

...
You have no concept of the knowledge or power of our living God and you just continue to make foolish mistakes at every turn, stop like the star did, reverse your coarse and search for the truth that can save you.

GC

Note the insecurity, hubris and, of course, the subtle threat.

Again, pathetic and sad.

I conclude that poster Godscreated is basically full of himself, willfully ignorant, quite disingenuous, pretends he is special and is deeply infected with a particularly virulent strain of the Christian God Virus.

Do I have that about right?

[Amarok]

Yes, Huggy.  And years ago when reading through one of his books I was astonished to learn that he thinks the gospels are "evidence." 

Ehrman is a man who has made an entire career out of shitting on the reliability and authenticity of your fucking holy horseshit..... but then he thinks he can suddenly turn around and say that he can extract certain bits of history from what is, effectively, religious propaganda.

I have more respect for Carrier who began by thinking that there was at least a basic man behind the jesus legend and after studying the matter and all the evidence came to the conclusion that it is all horseshit.  Jesus is no more real than Romulus or Perseus.  Mythic horseshit designed to fool the ignorant.

But neither of them have any fucking use for your miracle bullshit and jesus, if you strip away the miracles, would at best be some shlepper who got himself killed.
Big fucking deal.

*Emphasis mine*

You sure that's the narrative you want to paint?

Your boy Richard Carrier began to receive funding by Atheist groups, hence why his stance changed all of a sudden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier

Carrier was initially not interested in the question of the historicity of Jesus. Like many others his first thought was that it was a fringe conspiracy topic not worthy of academic inquiry; however a number of different people requested that he investigate the subject and raised money for him to do so. Since then he has become a leading expert on the Jesus ahistoricity theory.

Funny how that works...

His blog appeared on Freethought Blogs and he has frequently been a featured speaker at various skeptic, secular humanist, freethought and atheist conventions, such as the annual Freethought Festival in Madison, Wisconsin, the annual Skepticon convention in Springfield, Missouri and conventions sponsored by American Atheists.

You would accept any "historians" conclusion that had thiest money backing him, so why should any one accept Carrier's conclusions?

More from Carriers own blog.
http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2008/...ctors.html

Now I need a job. Even at best there won't be any academic positions available until Fall (and more realistically I might not find a position until 2009), but we've been stuck in debt for several years now and I'd like to clear it sooner rather than later. Our monthly expenses would drop immensely if we did,and this would substantially improve our situation. My wife would be very happy. And so would I. So I have an audacious proposal. It probably won't happen, especially in this present economy. But as Jack Burton said when he took a futile shot at the psychic eye monster in Lo Pan's underground lair, "Well, you never know until you try!"

Here's my proposal. In the past, generous private benefactors, on their own initiative, have paid me substantially to research and write various online works (such as Why I Am Not a Christian and Was Christianity Too Improbable to Be False). Could there be anyone else out there willing to fund my work? I'd like to find several benefactors, like those who've approached me before, with similar resources and interests, who would love to pool together to pay me to undertake a serious project over the next four months. That project can be anything, whatever this group most wants to see me complete this year. I'm open to suggestions (from those who really do have a mind to fund a project). But I'll use the following as a prominent example.

Hey, he even has a patron page...

https://www.patreon.com/DrRichardCarrier

So instead of looking at the research and showing it deceptive or wrong you just attack were carrier gets the money for his research? And you calling Carrier a conspiracy theorist .

---

*Emphasis mine*

You sure that's the narrative you want to paint?

Your boy Richard Carrier began to receive funding by Atheist groups, hence why his stance changed all of a sudden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier

So your argument is that Carrier was paid to look into something  therefore his research must be biased ? Or is it possible that he looked into it and was convinced of the theory ?You do realize historians are hired out by people and groups  to look into things? and that that does not mean the research is biased ?And the fact he started out disinterested actually gives him more credit not less . 

Funny how that works...

Funny that someone being funded to look into something might change their mind and believe the thing their studying ?

You would accept any "historians" conclusion that had thiest money backing him, so why should any one accept Carrier's conclusions?

Because it's not even remotely equivalent

Religious organizations have massive amounts of money to fund phony research and have done so .Atheist organization have no such finical incentive .If Carrier was interested in enriching himself he could have just pretended to be a theist apologist shill and all lucrative funding that goes with it .In fact why would Carrier hijack his own Career on a fringe idea? Because some atheist group gave him some money to write some books and speak ? Does that honestly sound plausible?

That's all i'll say on the matter

[Abaddon_ire]

If you think the wise men showed up while Jesus was in a manger, then you imply that he was there for two years since that was the amont time it took the magi to travel from the point the star first appeared.

What makes you think that they were travelling for two years?

[Mister Agenda]

crucifixion ordered by Pilate actually happened;

Why? It's probably the most far fetched of the mundane aspects of the Yeshua mythology, unless he was an early zealot rebel whose uprising got cut from the book.

The context of my post makes it clear that I'm referring to the consensus of the historians that Huggy is citing.

However, simply having gotten executed by the Romans doesn't seem that far-fetched to me, minus the obvious embellishments. The Romans were meticulous record-keepers, but they were not so good at preserving them. There is little available for 1st Century Roman-occupied Palestine in the way of Roman records of sentences of execution. It's not like we have reams of criminal proceedings from that time and place with a suspicious gap. We don't have much at all in the way of such records when Pilate was prefect. Outside of the Gospels and Acts, there is just enough mention of Pilate to make it reasonable to accept that the man actually existed and was the 5th Roman prefect of Judaea. To the best of my knowledge, we don't have the name of anyone Pilate authorized the execution of in his ten years as prefect of Judaea from a non-Christian source.

---

Do you think that might be why the bible makes no such claim?

If you think the wise men showed up while Jesus was in a manger, then you imply that he was there for two years since that was the amont time it took the magi to travel from the point the star first appeared.

Because God just didn't have enough information to start them heading towards Bethlehem until his son was actually born? Was he afraid Jesus was going to be a preemie that didn't survive? Or do you just not believe in prophecy?

[Abaddon_ire]

Because God just didn't have enough information to start them heading towards Bethlehem until his son was actually born? Was he afraid Jesus was going to be a preemie that didn't survive? Or do you just not believe in prophecy?

Both.. Apparently, "god" is so useless that he was unable to send the star two years in advance. Or he/she/it/housecat was unsure if it would work.

In any event, let's just cite what the bible actually says. From Matthew...

In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage." When King Herod heard this, he was frightened and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" Then Herod secretly called for the wise men and learned from them the exact time when the star had appeared. Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, "Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage." When they had heard the king, they set out; and there, ahead of them, went the star that they had seen at its rising, until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they left for their own country by another path.

Any mention of two years travelling? Nope. Couple that with them travelling by camel, you get a range of some seven thousand miles which is absurd. They could have come from Japan or the US at that rate. The two year thing is entirely made-up crap post facto.

Well let's compare with what Mark, Luke and John claim about that. Maybe there is some corroboration in those gospels. Nope. Nothing, not even the magi.

On top of that, the entire concept of "magi" was plagiarised directly from Zoroastrianism.

All of it is simply tacked on BS.

[Huggy Bear]

Because God just didn't have enough information to start them heading towards Bethlehem until his son was actually born? Was he afraid Jesus was going to be a preemie that didn't survive? Or do you just not believe in prophecy?

Both.. Apparently, "god" is so useless that he was unable to send the star two years in advance. Or he/she/it/housecat was unsure if it would work.

In any event, let's just cite what the bible actually says. From Matthew...

In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage." When King Herod heard this, he was frightened and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" Then Herod secretly called for the wise men and learned from them the exact time when the star had appeared. Then he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, "Go and search diligently for the child; and when you have found him, bring me word so that I may also go and pay him homage." When they had heard the king, they set out; and there, ahead of them, went the star that they had seen at its rising, until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they left for their own country by another path.

Any mention of two years travelling? Nope. Couple that with them travelling by camel, you get a range of some seven thousand miles which is absurd. They could have come from Japan or the US at that rate. The two year thing is entirely made-up crap post facto.

Well let's compare with what Mark, Luke and John claim about that. Maybe there is some corroboration in those gospels. Nope. Nothing, not even the magi.

On top of that, the entire concept of "magi" was plagiarised directly from Zoroastrianism.

All of it is simply tacked on BS.

*emphasis mine*
You clearly left that part out... Just more atheist dishonesty.