HELL or not HELL?

[HappySkeptic]

If the utmost of evil are not punished and are rewarded with paradise ..

If such people God treats them well, then what is the purpose of Anger and hate towards evil?  ...

Easy answer -- there is no God, and no life everlasting.

If you hate evil, then work to stop it, in this world.  There isn't another world to "sort things out".

I do believe in evil, but I don't believe in Evil.  We know ill intent when we see it, because we are all capable of it.  It is up to us to call it out and fight against it. 

There are also lots of gray areas where we have to work hard to figure out what good is.  It doesn't come down from on high on tablets, and each generation makes its own judgments.

If you care about the war in Yemen, or any other issue, have you made your voice heard?  Prayer does nothing, unless it spurs you into some sort of positive action.

[Mystic]

If the utmost of evil are not punished and are rewarded with paradise ..

If such people God treats them well, then what is the purpose of Anger and hate towards evil?  ...

Easy answer -- there is no God, and no life everlasting.

If you hate evil, then work to stop it, in this world.  There isn't another world to "sort things out".

I do believe in evil, but I don't believe in Evil.  We know ill intent when we see it, because we are all capable of it.  It is up to us to call it out and fight against it. 

There are also lots of gray areas where we have to work hard to figure out what good is.  It doesn't come down from on high on tablets, and each generation makes its own judgments.

If you care about the war in Yemen, or any other issue, have you made your voice heard?  Prayer does nothing, unless it spurs you into some sort of positive action.

Your post is kind of related but at the same off-topic to the OP.

The OP is saying to defend the logical position of hell. If there was only grey Areas I agree there would be no clear distinction between good and evil, and misguidance and guidance would have less of an opposition, but I am talking from the framework:

1) God exists.
2) He sent Prophets to establish his authority and appointed true Guiding Kings after he sealed revelations.
3) These humans and their followers have faced a lot of oppression and there has been great mischief in the land and in the past, to hide their truth.


In the framework, I argue:


The envy towards God's beautiful names and trespassing their sanctity is one of the worse evils you can do that merits you hell.

This is because when truth becomes clear, there is no longer a muck of grey, and God separates the good and evil in a very distinct manner when the proof is high and the word of God is manifestly proven.

Some people in this age, they know better, and some people don't.  God is forbearing overwhelmingly over the evils of those who don't know better but even if they can fall to disgrace that can never be repaired.

He sent Messengers to clarify the issue of his Guiding Kings and their authority through clear words of a revelation and they interpret it as it comes along, and I am talking from this framework.

I don't want to talk about what good and evil would mean without God or without Messengers or without a Guide and connection to God present today.

[HappySkeptic]

I don't want to talk about what good and evil would mean without God or without Messengers or without a Guide and connection to God present today.

Try to obey what is commanded by these "messengers of God" about how to treat your slaves, your wives, your rebellious children, and those who rebel against belief in god, and we will see you in jail.

[GrandizerII]

If Mark 9 isn't saying that those who burn in hell (Gehenna) are tormented forever, what was the point of the passage then?

My understanding is that it's an embellishment of a known place: IE if you sin you'll be thrown into the city dump (Gehenna) to burn for all eternity, with burning relating to the fires constantly burning in that place. It's an actual threat of some kind "Do this and you'll go to a place you actually know about" with a supernatural twist "...and burn forever".

Again, the point ultimately is it's the bible and everything there-in is bullshit anyway, but you get the point.

Is there a primary source I can access that states Gehenna was a city dump?

[Mystic]

I don't want to talk about what good and evil would mean without God or without Messengers or without a Guide and connection to God present today.

Try to obey what is commanded by these "messengers of God" about how to treat your slaves, your wives, your rebellious children, and those who rebel against belief in god, and we will see you in jail.

You are going off-topic.  If I interpret Islam and abandon most of Quran by what the infiltrating Pharaohs will have us believe, yes, I would end up in jail in trying to obey God and his Messenger by what these evil people attributed to Him.

My approach however is not only not to follow a hadith without knowledge, but even not follow an interpretation of a verse unless it's proven beyond doubt to me.  This is not possible by conjecture system called "ilmel rijaal" but rather you when reflecting have to take a leap of faith, that hadiths and Quran, as in true hadiths and true interpretation of Quran, somehow go together and manifest wonders, but this is to be downloaded and perceived through reflection.

I don't claim to know all they taught nor claim to represent God and his Messenger and those who hold the Authority from us, but I make them the focal point of my attention for enlightenment.

Choose who you wish for enlightenment, I have recognized the family of the reminder and tree of light who branches bring about the best of fruits.

It's just a matter of time before I replace my perception of Quran with a whole new higher level perception.  I no longer doubt it to be from God.

[HappySkeptic]

It's just a matter of time before I replace my perception of Quran with a whole new higher level perception.  I no longer doubt it to be from God.

I support your quest for enlightenment and truth, though I share none of your belief.

Even if you believe in God you should always question whether your perceptions are true or not.  The world if full of people who believe they know the will of God, and you would probably disagree.  Just use that same skepticism on yourself.

[Mystic]

It's just a matter of time before I replace my perception of Quran with a whole new higher level perception.  I no longer doubt it to be from God.

I support your quest for enlightenment and truth, though I share none of your belief.

Even if you believe in God you should always question whether your perceptions are true or not.  The world if full of people who believe they know the will of God, and you would probably disagree.  Just use that same skepticism on yourself.

As I said I try to not hold a stance without proof so I am neutral to most of what is attributed to Islam as I can't confirm or refute it as my level of knowledge now, but, there is somethings I know for sure and I know Muslims and their scholars, attribute much evil to God and his Messenger.

[OakTree500]

My understanding is that it's an embellishment of a known place: IE if you sin you'll be thrown into the city dump (Gehenna) to burn for all eternity, with burning relating to the fires constantly burning in that place. It's an actual threat of some kind "Do this and you'll go to a place you actually know about" with a supernatural twist "...and burn forever".

Again, the point ultimately is it's the bible and everything there-in is bullshit anyway, but you get the point.

Is there a primary source I can access that states Gehenna was a city dump?

Rational wiki states it was the equivalent of the city dump for Jerusalem, but I can't find anything to confirm that.

[WinterHold]

There is a type of envy that is so dark in nature, so evil, it merits hell. The Quran has shown how and exposes that these people are willing to bring the whole world to chaos and spread corruption and evil in the land instead of accepting the chosen tree of light, it's root builder and it's branches, and it's fruits.

This evil tree of envy, whoever holds on to in the inward kingdom and supports it's deceivers and heads in the outward kingdom,  and holds on to it after clear proofs, and holds on their lustful hate and envy, after the path has been made clear, they are deserving of hell, because their way is to never accept proofs and only rebel out of envy and hate and rebellion to God's chosen

[...]

Yet another lie?
No; this time you invented a whole story out of thin air.
There's no such thing in the Quran and what you wrote is a rude lie, shame on you to use the readers of your lies.
I know this book like the back of my hand, and your comment is all lies.

[Angrboda]

Evidence or GTFO.



Evidence or GTFO.

Evidence?

Sure yog.  
I am still waiting   for your evidence that there is no God, that there is only one life, that when the body die also the consciousness die, that the consciousness that we have is not the fruit of our work but come through the evolution of previous generations, that the consciousness is the product of the brain and so on...........

When will you produce this evidence yog?

Can I hope that will come before Christmas?
Possibly this Christmas yog not in ten years time.
Can you?  

So, in other words, you got nothing. Thanks for the conversation, Rik. It's been a slice.