Is tolerance intolerant?

[Amarok]

We just need a mass MYOB law that applies to the whole world.

Um no, that is not only impossible on a planet of 7 billion, it is unwise to be isolated.

Again there is a difference between protecting privacy, which is a value to be protected, and the separate issue of how western societies work in how laws everyone live under get made. 

MYOB, is an over simplification too. Up until the 70s for example, even after women gained the right to vote long before. It was considered a family matter if a man hit his wife. Today however, laws in many cases have an abuser arrested automatically if the police have the probable cause upon the scene. 

MYOB also unfortunately allowed priests forever to simply get shuffled to another church after accusations of molestation. 

Point is it isn't that simple. 

I am not fond of the either/or oversimplification of anything. 

Even with my neighbors. I had a couple of occasions early in the morning where I didn't realize how loud I was shouting in my house. I didn't realize I had woken his kid up at 5am. Yea, sorry, but he had every right to say something to me and I don't blame him. I apologized and have since made concerted effort to be mindful of time of day when being loud.

No man is an island

[T0 Th3 M4X]

We just need a mass MYOB law that applies to the whole world.

Um no, that is not only impossible on a planet of 7 billion, it is unwise to be isolated.

Again there is a difference between protecting privacy, which is a value to be protected, and the separate issue of how western societies work in how laws everyone live under get made. 

MYOB, is an over simplification too. Up until the 70s for example, even after women gained the right to vote long before. It was considered a family matter if a man hit his wife. Today however, laws in many cases have an abuser arrested automatically if the police have the probable cause upon the scene. 

MYOB also unfortunately allowed priests forever to simply get shuffled to another church after accusations of molestation. 

Point is it isn't that simple. 

I am not fond of the either/or oversimplification of anything. 

Even with my neighbors. I had a couple of occasions early in the morning where I didn't realize how loud I was shouting in my house. I didn't realize I had woken his kid up at 5am. Yea, sorry, but he had every right to say something to me and I don't blame him. I apologized and have since made concerted effort to be mindful of time of day when being loud.

It's not an "oversimplification."  You just tailor a law around the concept. If someone is committing a crime, then obviously it wouldn't apply.  But if someone is going out of there way to be an annoyance or tell others what they have to think or do, then we cover them in itching powder for 24 hrs. I can guarantee you they'll be less likely to do it again.

[bennyboy]

Yeah, I agree. People these days have made it their hobby not only to get in everyone else's business, but to find some way to take insult while doing so, and to act like warriors for justice.

I have no problems with X-mas songs. My daughter went to a private school for a couple of years. She had to read the Bible in chapel, sing a few gospel songs or whatever. No biggie for me-- she's learning about American culture. I mean. . . those are the people she's going to have to understand and attempt to deal with all her life.

Christmas is Western culture. It's a big thing in America. Suddenly acting like it's a purely religious holiday just because the songs are about Jesus is kinda dumb IMO.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Yeah, I agree.  People these days have made it their hobby not only to get in everyone else's business, but to find some way to take insult while doing so, and to act like warriors for justice.

I have no problems with X-mas songs.  My daughter went to a private school for a couple of years.  She had to read the Bible in chapel, sing a few gospel songs or whatever.  No biggie for me-- she's learning about American culture.  I mean. . . those are the people she's going to have to understand and attempt to deal with all her life.

Christmas is Western culture.  It's a big thing in America.  Suddenly acting like it's a purely religious holiday just because the songs are about Jesus is kinda dumb IMO.

Agreed. If you don't agree with someone, you just take it with a grain of salt.  If a Muslim approached me and said, "Happy Kwanzaa", I would smile and greet them back kindly.  It doesn't mean I agree with them on certain things, but I'm not trying to invalidate them or their kindness either.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yeah, I agree.  People these days have made it their hobby not only to get in everyone else's business, but to find some way to take insult while doing so, and to act like warriors for justice.

I have no problems with X-mas songs.  My daughter went to a private school for a couple of years.  She had to read the Bible in chapel, sing a few gospel songs or whatever.  No biggie for me-- she's learning about American culture.  I mean. . . those are the people she's going to have to understand and attempt to deal with all her life.

Christmas is Western culture.  It's a big thing in America.  Suddenly acting like it's a purely religious holiday just because the songs are about Jesus is kinda dumb IMO.

Agreed. If you don't agree with someone, you just take it with a grain of salt.  If a Muslim approached me and said,
"Happy Kwanzaa", I would smile and greet them back kindly.  It doesn't mean I agree with them on certain things, but I'm not trying to invalidate them or their kindness either.

Pretty unlikely, as Kwanzaa isn’t a Muslim holiday.

Boru

[Brian37]

Yeah, I agree.  People these days have made it their hobby not only to get in everyone else's business, but to find some way to take insult while doing so, and to act like warriors for justice.

I have no problems with X-mas songs.  My daughter went to a private school for a couple of years.  She had to read the Bible in chapel, sing a few gospel songs or whatever.  No biggie for me-- she's learning about American culture.  I mean. . . those are the people she's going to have to understand and attempt to deal with all her life.

Christmas is Western culture.  It's a big thing in America.  Suddenly acting like it's a purely religious holiday just because the songs are about Jesus is kinda dumb IMO.

Yea the entire crap about "Baby it's cold outside" is absurd sure, but there is no "both sides are equal" in that though.

I've heard plenty of stories over the years where fundies flip out about other students in public schools expressing their non Christian beliefs.

I simply think it is better for public schools to keep things neutral. The law isn't that kids cannot express themselves, the law is in regards to religion, that the state cannot promote itself one religion or sect over all others. 

The legal history is there. Teachers and staff are not allowed to force students to do anything religious. They are also not allowed to force the pledge on students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virgi...._Barnette

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v...._Education



And it is also a myth that Madelyn O'Hair started the prayer case. She was actually basing her argument on the prior case linked above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_S...v._Schempp

[The__Chameleon]

I accept that I am not perfect.
I embrace the dawn of a new day.
I understand that other people aren't perfect either.
I tolerate a cold.

I think that understanding and respect are key to social harmony, not tolerance.
I understand that some cultures hold very different ideas and values to those that I have been raised with and are accustomed to. I understand that the beliefs and lifestyles of some cultures sometimes clash and in those cases I advocate for voluntary segregation by both parties. Good fences make good neighbors. I do not want to be forced to live somewhere where people don't communicate well (if at all) in my language nor in many cases seem to want to learn how. I don't want to be forced to reside near foreign ways, foreign smells, and foreign ideas of personal space and property. For some, these things do not represent an inconvenience so much as an adventure, and those individuals should by all means live and work in ethnically mixed communities. But I feel there should also be communities that are more culturally isolated. Such communities, being not forced to culturally homogenize will be able to preserve the character of their respective culture better.


I like ice cream, and I like steak, but I don't at all like the idea of ice cream on my steak. Some things just don't belong on the same plate. China town (for example) is a lovely place to visit, but I don't want to live there, nor do I want my own community to become China town. Does that make me a racist? Well, there are likely those who would say yes, but my idea of a racist is someone who hates other people based on race, and that ain't me. But I do believe that everything has it's place, and the best place for people of certain cultures, especially if they are unwilling to fully integrate, is with others of their own ilk. If I move to another country to live, I  am expected by the people there to become fluent in their language and speak it when in public or in mixed company. I am expected to learn and adhere to the ways and customs of the native culture. But when we accept people here from other cultures, it is we who are expected to accommodate their ways.


Now with respect to immigration, I am a firm believer that charity begins at home. I understand that there are situations in other countries that make them unlivable for many, but instead of inviting those people here, to where there are not enough jobs for those already here and where social services are already strained, we should instead be going over there and fixing the issues that make those places suck for the people who live there. Yes, both cost money, but the latter option offers a long term solution that doesn't create a social burden at here. Once said country is set to a state of sociopolitical stability and economic self-sufficiency there ceases to be a need to accept a gazillion new immigrants every year. And lets face it, the Liberals just want to import voters to stay in power. The accumulating long term burden to our economy isn't even a consideration for them.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Agreed. If you don't agree with someone, you just take it with a grain of salt.  If a Muslim approached me and said,
"Happy Kwanzaa", I would smile and greet them back kindly.  It doesn't mean I agree with them on certain things, but I'm not trying to invalidate them or their kindness either.

Pretty unlikely, as Kwanzaa isn’t a Muslim holiday.

Boru

It's an African holiday.  Many Muslims celebrate Kwanzaa and Ramadan.  Maybe you're thinking of Hanukkah that the Muslims wouldn't observe.

[tackattack]

1. If I'm allowed to do X and it's not illegal or harmful to anyone
2. I am doing X in a public free place
3. What right do you as an individual to come along and tell me I can't do X because you don't agree with it?
*4.Especially given that you chose to be somewhere X is allowed and don't have to be there

Yes there are generalizations. But you 2 failed to address where any of them are wrong or invalid. I see you moving closer to seeing a different perspective. I specifically stated in one if it's not illegal. I also pre-qualified the argument by stating we're leaving institutions and organizations out of it, it's a person to person thing. I think Benny hit the nail right on the head.

I oppose marketing and selling cigarettes to minors. As long as I can afford to smoke I will smoke. If they increase the tax 200% I might desire less to smoke and maybe decide to quit. That's my choice, just as it's my choice to smoke in designated areas.

For instance : ATL airport has smoking rooms still. I can go in there to smoke if I'd like to. Before a flight once, I noticed some ladies sitting in a row across from the entrance. I sat down to retrieve something from my bag. I overheard part of the conversation and stewed on it the entire flight. They were basically ranting about how they don't have to put up with smokers at other airports and she'd wish they'd just do away with it. Didn't they know smoking way bad. She had a mind to bar the door so they could all sit in their with their poisonous air. She had every right to have all those opinions. When I waled across the way and sat in the smoking are and made eye contact with her, she knew I had heard her and I got the nasty eye. She could have felt a lot of things in that moment, shame in expressing her options so vehemently, "oh there goes another one", but instead she doubled down on hatred and intolerance. I like what Chameleon said.

Someone once passed me to enter a restaurant, where I was smoking outside, because you can't smoke inside. I'm used to the fake coughs and dirty glares, but hey IDC, your side forced me to only have this area to smoke. They young lady went further though and actually told me "How rude, Don't you know those are bad for you?" I politely said to her fake smiling self, "So is telling someone how to live their life" and proceeded to hold the door open for her without the fake smile.

I'm just trying to figure out where things like shame, respect, understanding and compassion has gone in society. If you're in a free country and don't like something and can't tolerate it, then GTFO, you're in a free country free to do anything you WANT or LIKE to do. IF you don't WANT to go somewhere where they allow smoking, then go somewhere else. If I don't WANT to smoke for whatever reason, I'll stop. I think it bils down to most people just LIKE to Bitch about others and point out the differences instead of finding common ground.

[no one]

People often forget that freedom is a two way street.