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KAFIR
#11
RE: KAFIR
Quote:Moreover if somebody is atheist, they are literally saying that they don't believe in anything (emphasis added)

You don't really understand what words mean, do you?

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#12
RE: KAFIR
(December 19, 2018 at 9:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It also means 'nigger'.  Just thought you should know.

Boru

There's no difference between usages.  That's how the adherents of the religion of peace saw non believers.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#13
RE: KAFIR
Atlas,

Your view takes a strict normative meaning of kafir without acknowledging its emotive connotations evolved through its use. You must certainly understand that kafir is frequently used as an invective. What are the consequences to Muslims subject to takfir? You can take exception to evolving use of language, but it can't be ignored.

American football commentators started abusing the word differential to refer to a difference in score or some other performance statistic. I continue to loathe its misuse; however, I understand the meaning conveyed and it's ubiquitous use suggests that I would be foolish to expect a return of its original meaning. The same can be said of kafir 's use. It's evolved connotative meaning
will likely never return to its strict literal and normative definition.
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#14
RE: KAFIR
(December 19, 2018 at 10:12 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
Quote:Opinion insertion hurts a lot; it can tear your anus too. So I dislike it and won't do it.

I don't think you should either.  Be awful to get a paper cut in such a tender area.

Quote:atheist
/ˈeɪθɪɪst/
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
"he is a committed atheist"
synonyms:
non-believer, non-theist, disbeliever, unbeliever, heretic, sceptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, agnostic, infidel, irreligious person, heathen, pagan, freethinker, libertine, nihilist; More

But nothing there says that atheists 'literally...don't believe in anything', which was your contention.

Quote:AKA you're a Kaffir.

You give the impression (and I sincerely hope I'm wrong about this) that you know the current meaning of 'kaffir' but are using the pretense of the historical meaning to give yourself a pass.  This is like people who contend that 'nigger' isn't a vile, hateful word because it once meant 'Negro'.

Boru

I remember the word being used by the South Africans in the movie Die Hard, so I looked it up.

Originally the word kefir referred to just the Xhosa tribe. In the early 1800's the British were trying to keep the peace between South African tribes after 3 or 4 tribal wars that were threatening British rule. The Xhosa tribe decided to take up arms against the British. The word kefir has some significant meaning specific to the tribal costume of the Xhosa tribe. The Brits adopted the word to describe that specific tribe. There was a unit of British soldiers who were assigned the duty of keeping the Xhosa tribe under control and the duty was considered to be so bad that other soldiers referred to the unit as the Kefir police. Over time kefir became kaffir and was used as a reference to all black people. During Apartheid it became a popular derogatory term referring to all black people.  

The two words sound the same, but they have completely different meanings. It only means nigger in SA Afrikaner.
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#15
RE: KAFIR
(December 19, 2018 at 10:00 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: But you are an atheist, so you are defined by google to be....
 Uhm.... language doesn't work that way....
 Jus' sayin'.
 Not at work.
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#16
RE: KAFIR
(December 19, 2018 at 9:40 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 9:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It also means 'nigger'.  Just thought you should know.

Boru

For the record, the equivelent of the "n word" is "زنجي Zenjy". Ancient Arabs used "Black Slave" instead of "Zenjy" though.
But Islam gave black people their rights through this famous verse:


Quote:https://quran.com/49/13?translations=

Sura 49, The Quran:

(13) O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

Neither the Koran, or Bible or Torah or Talmud or Buddha or Hindu Bagivad Gita give human's rights. Humans evolved with empathy, so when we advocate for human rights as a species, it isn't old mythology doing it, it is our species recognizing others are the same species. You don't need a religion to do the right thing.

(December 19, 2018 at 9:40 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 9:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It also means 'nigger'.  Just thought you should know.

Boru

For the record, the equivelent of the "n word" is "زنجي Zenjy". Ancient Arabs used "Black Slave" instead of "Zenjy" though.
But Islam gave black people their rights through this famous verse:


Quote:https://quran.com/49/13?translations=

Sura 49, The Quran:

(13) O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

Neither the Koran, or Bible or Torah or Talmud or Buddha or Hindu Bagivad Gita give human's rights. Humans evolved with empathy, so when we advocate for human rights as a species, it isn't old mythology doing it, it is our species recognizing others are the same species. You don't need a religion to do the right thing.
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#17
RE: KAFIR
(December 19, 2018 at 11:00 am)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 9:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It also means 'nigger'.  Just thought you should know.

Boru

There's no difference between usages.  That's how the adherents of the religion of peace saw non believers.

But the Quran is saying:

Quote:Sura 3, The Quran:
Sahih International

(113) They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].


and
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:

Sahih International

(131) That is because your Lord would not destroy the cities for wrongdoing while their people were unaware.

(132) and for all are degrees from what they have done. And your Lord is not unaware of what they do.


By verse 6, sura 132 I think you're a liar or an ignorant.
Everybody has a degree. You're imagining the Islamic boogyman created in the filthy corridors of the CIA and Saudi Arabia.

(December 19, 2018 at 11:02 am)Cato Wrote: Atlas,

Your view takes a strict normative meaning of kafir without acknowledging its emotive connotations evolved through its use.  You must certainly understand that kafir is frequently used as an invective. What are the consequences to Muslims subject to takfir?  You can take exception to evolving use of language, but it can't be ignored.

American football commentators started abusing the word differential to refer to a difference in score or some other performance statistic.  I continue to loathe its misuse; however, I understand the meaning conveyed and it's ubiquitous use suggests that I would be foolish to expect a return of its original meaning.  The same can be said of kafir 's use.  It's evolved connotative meaning
will likely never return to its strict literal and normative definition.

The invective use of the word is an indication for how ignorant and gullible the user of the word is.
It is an indication of how the user -who uses the word out of emotional snaps for invective reasons- is turning Islam into a personal property, and turning such a word into a slur.

I didn't use it as a slur. I used it just as it was used in the Quran: to describe rejects of the message of Mohammed.

You are referring to a wide custom of using this word as a slur; as a curse; but I'm stating its real meaning in the OP. Using it like that is a mere superiority-complex mixed with ignorant mentality.

(December 20, 2018 at 7:27 am)Brian37 Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 9:40 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: For the record, the equivelent of the "n word" is "زنجي Zenjy". Ancient Arabs used "Black Slave" instead of "Zenjy" though.
But Islam gave black people their rights through this famous verse:

Neither the Koran, or Bible or Torah or Talmud or Buddha or Hindu Bagivad Gita give human's rights. Humans evolved with empathy, so when we advocate for human rights as a species, it isn't old mythology doing it, it is our species recognizing others are the same species. You don't need a religion to do the right thing.
Explain this, Brian:

Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
Sahih International


(85) And to [the people of] Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, worship Allah ; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers.
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#18
RE: KAFIR
(December 21, 2018 at 2:30 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 11:02 am)Cato Wrote: Atlas,

Your view takes a strict normative meaning of kafir without acknowledging its emotive connotations evolved through its use.  You must certainly understand that kafir is frequently used as an invective. What are the consequences to Muslims subject to takfir?  You can take exception to evolving use of language, but it can't be ignored.

American football commentators started abusing the word differential to refer to a difference in score or some other performance statistic.  I continue to loathe its misuse; however, I understand the meaning conveyed and it's ubiquitous use suggests that I would be foolish to expect a return of its original meaning.  The same can be said of kafir 's use.  It's evolved connotative meaning
will likely never return to its strict literal and normative definition.

The invective use of the word is an indication for how ignorant and gullible the user of the word is.
It is an indication of how the user -who uses the word out of emotional snaps for invective reasons- is turning Islam into a personal property, and turning such a word into a slur.

I didn't use it as a slur. I used it just as it was used in the Quran: to describe rejects of the message of Mohammed.

You are referring to a wide custom of using this word as a slur; as a curse; but I'm stating its real meaning in the OP. Using it like that is a mere superiority-complex mixed with ignorant mentality.

The 'real' meaning of a word is determined by how that word is used, not by some semantic archeological enterprise. You are guilty of the genetic fallacy here. No, using a word in the manner that it is currently used is not any superiority-complex mixed with ignorance, rather it is you who is demonstrating his ignorance by not understanding how words work. Both you and Mystic make this same stupid argument, that current usage is in some sense false, and that the preferred usage is some extinct meaning which no longer exists. You do this because you want to whitewash the truth, to cleanse the ugliness that is Islam by appealing to false arguments, historical revisionism, and a theory of privileging certain Islamic facts over others. In this you are no different than any other apologist who, unable to deny the ugliness that is Islam, attempt to create a false and non-existent Islam that does not contain the ugliness, and argue that this cleansed version of Islam is the real Islam. It is not. Islam is dirty and disgusting, and as its apologist, you're nothing but a hero in favor of Muslim and Arab atrocities. You are responsible, Atlass. You are.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#19
RE: KAFIR
Any Muslim forum is likely to reveal how the word is currently used. Descriptions are likely to involve excrement and/or donkeys. It's clearly meant to be taken as an insult; but Atlas wants to call us kafir and have us like it. Fuck that noise.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#20
RE: KAFIR
(December 21, 2018 at 2:30 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(December 19, 2018 at 11:00 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: There's no difference between usages.  That's how the adherents of the religion of peace saw non believers.

But the Quran is saying:

Quote:Sura 3, The Quran:
Sahih International

(113) They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].


and
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:

Sahih International

(131) That is because your Lord would not destroy the cities for wrongdoing while their people were unaware.

(132) and for all are degrees from what they have done. And your Lord is not unaware of what they do.


By verse 6, sura 132 I think you're a liar or an ignorant.
Everybody has a degree. You're imagining the Islamic boogyman created in the filthy corridors of the CIA and Saudi Arabia.

(December 19, 2018 at 11:02 am)Cato Wrote: Atlas,

Your view takes a strict normative meaning of kafir without acknowledging its emotive connotations evolved through its use.  You must certainly understand that kafir is frequently used as an invective. What are the consequences to Muslims subject to takfir?  You can take exception to evolving use of language, but it can't be ignored.

American football commentators started abusing the word differential to refer to a difference in score or some other performance statistic.  I continue to loathe its misuse; however, I understand the meaning conveyed and it's ubiquitous use suggests that I would be foolish to expect a return of its original meaning.  The same can be said of kafir 's use.  It's evolved connotative meaning
will likely never return to its strict literal and normative definition.

The invective use of the word is an indication for how ignorant and gullible the user of the word is.
It is an indication of how the user -who uses the word out of emotional snaps for invective reasons- is turning Islam into a personal property, and turning such a word into a slur.

I didn't use it as a slur. I used it just as it was used in the Quran: to describe rejects of the message of Mohammed.

You are referring to a wide custom of using this word as a slur; as a curse; but I'm stating its real meaning in the OP. Using it like that is a mere superiority-complex mixed with ignorant mentality.

(December 20, 2018 at 7:27 am)Brian37 Wrote: Neither the Koran, or Bible or Torah or Talmud or Buddha or Hindu Bagivad Gita give human's rights. Humans evolved with empathy, so when we advocate for human rights as a species, it isn't old mythology doing it, it is our species recognizing others are the same species. You don't need a religion to do the right thing.
Explain this, Brian:

Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
Sahih International


(85) And to [the people of] Madyan [We sent] their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, worship Allah ; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers.


Again so what? The bible also goes after greed too, I am sure you have heard of Jesus tipping over the change carts. You can find motifs of sharing and compassion in Buddhism and Hinduism  and Jewish faith too. 

Our species ability to share and care, is the same evolution that leads a pair of parent birds sharing the food with their multiple chicks. It is why female lions will care for the cubs of others, not only their own.

IF YOU the individual are doing good for others, even those who don't share the same label you do, that is not the label doing it, that is YOU the individual doing it. There is not one nation, friend or foe alike, that does not have hospitals and prisons.
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