Abiogenesis in the proximity of hydrothermal vents?

[Duty]

Perhaps I can make something of amends by posting on topic. Theists sometimes trot out the line "but the beginning of life on earth (they usually don't know the word abiogenesis) has only happened ONCE - how do you explain that, stupid atheist!?"


The fact of the matter is, as Darwin himself wrote: 

Darwin discussed the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity, &c., present, that a compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes." He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Perhaps I can make something of amends by posting on topic. Theists sometimes trot out the line "but the beginning of life on earth (they usually don't know the word abiogenesis) has only happened ONCE - how do you explain that, stupid atheist!?"


The fact of the matter is, as Darwin himself wrote: 

Darwin discussed the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity, &c., present, that a compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes." He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed."

Speaking for myself, it doesn't seem to be the issue.  More along the lines of you can't prove it happened once.  "Can" or "can't" is also irrelevant if it didn't.  At best, a "can" today would make it something worth considering, but not concluding.

Just to bridge the gap a bit, when we look at God as the Creator then we know inorganic can be formed into organic, based on the Bible's explanation that God formed man from the earth, at which point he became a living soul, and he said it was good.

The alternative, which I think would be fair is say, is that someone a simple one-celled organism was cooked up in a "primordial soup", then through mitosis and meiosis + mutations gained in complexity over time.  Of course for that to happen, you need RNA, so it would have to be assumed that somehow this soup was cooking RNA   And of course all this by randomness to get it going.

For me, what would be your version, and feel free to correct me if it's not, is really a shot in the dark.  Even if you could get to that point of saying "abiogenesis" happened, the increase in information is still a problem.  If you say mutations caused an increase in information, it would also need to be functional, but the results of mutations are almost always the opposite.  An example would be cancer. Of course we know that's not good, so we must eliminate the cancer cells to eliminate the detrimental effects on the body.  If not they can become malignant and create more, which can eventually kill someone.  Or a mutation could add a new element that weakens the organism.  Say a fly gets an extra wing.  Yep, we got something new, but it will also likely kill the fly because now it can't fly properly.  If the dysfunction doesn't kill it, then it would likely get picked off more easily by a predator.  Not only did "positive" mutations have to occur, but in the reproductive system so that it could be passed down to offspring.  On and on and on...

So yeah, I don't readily assume abiogenesis but if someone feels they can prove it conclusively even once, I'm still happy to hear then out.

[Duty]

Lacking a time machine to transport humans back 4.5 billion years and hundreds, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of years, once there, in the deep ocean (not earth btw - earth (dirt) is a consequence of biological life and does not pre-date it) to observe abiogenesis, your conclusive proof will not transpire. Thankfully many can join the dots and think "yup, that's pretty neat and certainly the most plausible explanation currently available."

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Lacking a time machine to transport humans back 4.5 billion years and hundreds, perhaps even hundreds of thousands, of years, once there, in the deep ocean (not earth btw - earth (dirt) is a consequence of biological life and does not pre-date it) to observe abiogenesis, your conclusive proof will not transpire. Thankfully many can join the dots and think "yup, that's pretty neat and certainly the most plausible explanation currently available."

It's one explanation.  Yep, agreed.  Also agreed that the proof will not transpire due to the nature of the subject.  Yay or Nay, it's no fault of anyone to not be able to directly assess it.  We just happen to disagree, and it's your right to choose what you want to believe.

[Duty]

The civil nature of your post is esteemed and appreciated, although I must disagree with one element of it in particular. Nobody "chooses" what to believe, about anything. One only believes what one perceives to be the truth.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

The civil nature of your post is esteemed and appreciated, although I must disagree with one element of it in particular. Nobody "chooses" what to believe, about anything. One only believes what one perceives to be the truth.

Thank you.  I appreciate your honest approach to dealing with things.

[Peebothuhlu]

"... Then we know inorganic can be formed into organic, based on the Bible's explanation that God formed man from the earth... "

Uhm... if that's the case.

Why are we Carbon based life forms... And not Silicon/Silicate based life froms?

Because, y'know, pretty much most of the planet is made up of silicates and not Carbon.

Jus' sayin'....

[T0 Th3 M4X]

"... Then we know inorganic can be formed into organic, based on the Bible's explanation that God formed man from the earth... "

Uhm... if that's the case.

Why are we Carbon based life forms... And not Silicon/Silicate based life froms?

Because, y'know, pretty much most of the planet is made up of silicates and not Carbon.

Jus' sayin'....

Can't say I see the relevance here.  Can you either explain or provide a source?  Thanks in advance.

[Peebothuhlu]

Uhm... if that's the case.

Why are we Carbon based life forms... And not Silicon/Silicate based life froms?

Because, y'know, pretty much most of the planet is made up of silicates and not Carbon.

Jus' sayin'....

Can't say I see the relevance here.  Can you either explain or provide a source?  Thanks in advance.

 From a quick Google-Fu search into the WIkipedia.

 "....The thicker crust is continental crust, which is less dense and composed of  (felsic) sodium, potassium, aluminium silicate rocks, like granit.... "

Not a lot of Carbon mentioned in said section on earth's crust/outer bit.

Again, jus' sayin'.

If we're supposed to made of dirt.

Why, then, aren't we currently made of dirt?

Not at work.

[T0 Th3 M4X]

Can't say I see the relevance here.  Can you either explain or provide a source?  Thanks in advance.

 From a quick Google-Fu search into the WIkipedia.

 "....The thicker crust is continental crust, which is less dense and composed of  (felsic) sodium, potassium, aluminium silicate rocks, like granit.... "

Not a lot of Carbon mentioned in said section on earth's crust/outer bit.

Again, jus' sayin'.

If we're supposed to made of dirt.

Why, then, aren't we currently made of dirt?

Not at work.

Because He breathed into us more than dirt.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Maybe ask yourself why "dirt" is composed of organic matter.  Additionally it contains minerals the human body needs.  Which is why we grow food in soil.  Those nutrients go into the fruits and vegetables, then we consume them.  We die and that organic material goes back into the dirt, which can grow more plants, which the next person can eat.  Of course we can also do this through composting waste.

One of my cats thinks my raised bed garden is a giant litter box.  She goes there, does her business, and buries it. I have no problem letting her do it because I know in a few months that soil will be rich in nutrients when it comes time to plant this year's garden.