The decline of evangelical Christians.

[Jehanne]

I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

[Brian37]

I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

To be fair, every religion currently believed will eventually morph into something unrecognizable or completely die out, just like the dead mythologies nobody believes in today.

Religion is really nothing more than mythology that has yet to be recognized for what it is.

[Jehanne]

That is true, in spite of the fact that Cortes landed in Mesoamerica right around the time that Quetzalcoatl was prophesied to return.

[Acrobat]

I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

I think in some way it's a good thing that Christianity is dying in the west, only be replaced by it the East. Western civilization has been a poor bearer of Christianity, and in my view the East will do it far more justice than we've ever done for it. 

In other waysi don't think it's a good thing, have you ever seen right wing atheists? They are way worse than they're christian counterparts. There seems to naive assumption that Christianity and Right Wing ideology go hand in hand, that the decline in Christianity comes with a decline in the right, a growth of liberalism, but this is not the case, and much world seems to be shifting to the secular right. While the christian right has an obligation to moral values, the secular right does not, leaving it void of any restraining force or potential, and that could be ugly.

As far christianity decline as a moral force, I'd christianity is the only moral force, secular humanism as such, as merely moral suggestions, moral wishes. I don't know if in this sense it's in decline, unless it's being reduced to like 2 or 3 political issues, like abortions, and gay rights.

[Yonadav]

I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

Here is an article written by an evangelical who has been involved in political activism since before the rise of the evangelical right.  The writer of the article talks about him and some other evangelicals engaging in political activism on behalf of George McGovern in 1972 (the last left winger to be nominated by the party).
https://religionnews.com/2017/09/26/reme...political/

Evangelicals are not a monolithic group. There have always been evangelical progressives. Vote Common Good is an evangelical organization that was almost certainly instrumental in flipping a few seats from red to blue during the midterms. The right could not maintain a stranglehold on evangelicals forever. I think that it is sort of an open question whether the evangelicals fevered the minds of the right, or the right fevered the minds of evangelicals.

[Brian37]

I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

I think in some way it's a good thing that Christianity is dying in the west, only be replaced by it the East. Western civilization has been a poor bearer of Christianity, and in my view the East will do it far more justice than we've ever done for it. 

In other waysi don't think it's a good thing, have you ever seen right wing atheists? They are way worse than they're christian counterparts. There seems to naive assumption that Christianity and Right Wing ideology go hand in hand, that the decline in Christianity comes with a decline in the right, a growth of liberalism, but this is not the case, and much world seems to be shifting to the secular right. While the christian right has an obligation to moral values, the secular right does not, leaving it void of any restraining force or potential, and that could be ugly.

As far christianity decline as a moral force, I'd christianity is the only moral force, secular humanism as such, as merely moral suggestions, moral wishes. I don't know if in this sense it's in decline, unless it's being reduced to like 2 or 3 political issues, like abortions, and gay rights.

You better hope not. Russia is a far more conservative country that America and is a majority Russian Orthodox Christian. Run by a former KGB thug, who is a Christian himself.

"Christianity is the only moral force"?  No that is your tribalism speaking. I am quite sure if you ask enough Muslims or Jews or Buddhists, they'd argue the same. And that is pretty narcissistic of a claim on a planet of 7 billion. 

Ok, lets say suddenly all 7 billion humans suddenly believed in a magic baby with super powers? Do you think even then, there would only be one sect of Christianity and never any disputes or wars between Christians, and prisons wouldn't exist at all? Sorry, but past history proves there is no part of the globe, in any religion of the world, that has not had points of internal conflicts between the sub sects, not just with other religions.

[Acrobat]

You better hope not. Russia is a far more conservative country that America and is a majority Russian Orthodox Christian. Run by a former KGB thug, who is a Christian himself.

Russia may be far more conservative, but it's far less religious than America. 43% of Russians are "nones", which is more than Russian Orthodox Christians, in fact the level of disbelief is far more comparable to the Scandinavian countries than America.

"Christianity is the only moral force"?  No that is your tribalism speaking. I am quite sure if you ask enough Muslims or Jews or Buddhists, they'd argue the same. And that is pretty narcissistic of a claim on a planet of 7 billion. 

Well, I was referring to America, were these groups are marginal, but I'll revise it to Judeo-Christianity is the only moral force. Absent of it there is no such thing as a moral force in America.

Ok, lets say suddenly all 7 billion humans suddenly believed in a magic baby with super powers? Do you think even then, there would only be one sect of Christianity and never any disputes or wars between Christians, and prisons wouldn't exist at all? Sorry, but past history proves there is no part of the globe, in any religion of the world, that has not had points of internal conflicts between the sub sects, not just with other religions.

History proves, that if there's enough differences between any group, there's bound to be conflicts within them, and given particular conditions this can turn into violence. Countries that have been immune to this, have been able to retain a high level of homogeny, and often have a hard time when foreigners and others are introduced into their populations.

Some are able to work those differences out, and other's are still struggling to do so.

Secondly most christians seem to be able to get along with other christians from different christian sects pretty well, even if they have theological differences. There is more conflict between liberals and conservatives, feminist and non-feminist, etc... than there is between christian sects in America.

[Brian37]

You better hope not. Russia is a far more conservative country that America and is a majority Russian Orthodox Christian. Run by a former KGB thug, who is a Christian himself.

Russia may be far more conservative, but it's far less religious than America. 43% of Russians are "nones", which is more than Russian Orthodox Christians, in fact the level of disbelief is far more comparable to the Scandinavian countries than America.

"Christianity is the only moral force"?  No that is your tribalism speaking. I am quite sure if you ask enough Muslims or Jews or Buddhists, they'd argue the same. And that is pretty narcissistic of a claim on a planet of 7 billion. 

Well, I was referring to America, were these groups are marginal, but I'll revise it to Judeo-Christianity is the only moral force. Absent of it there is no such thing as a moral force in America.

Ok, lets say suddenly all 7 billion humans suddenly believed in a magic baby with super powers? Do you think even then, there would only be one sect of Christianity and never any disputes or wars between Christians, and prisons wouldn't exist at all? Sorry, but past history proves there is no part of the globe, in any religion of the world, that has not had points of internal conflicts between the sub sects, not just with other religions.

History proves, that if there's enough differences between any group, there's bound to be conflicts within them, and given particular conditions this can turn into violence. Countries that have been immune to this, have been able to retain a high level of homogeny, and often have a hard time when foreigners and others are introduced into their populations.

Some are able to work those differences out, and other's are still struggling to do so.

Secondly most christians seem to be able to get along with other christians from different christian sects pretty well, even if they have theological differences. There is more conflict between liberals and conservatives, feminist and non-feminist, etc... than there is between christian sects in America.

Western pluralism and checks on power happened in spite of religion, not because of it.

If America were to suddenly get rid of the constitution, the first people oppressed would be non Christians, but after a while the sub sects of Christianity would go back to the same barbaric tribalism Europe had prior to the age of Enlightenment. 

And sorry, even after the ink was dry on the Constitution, we still did shitty things to Native Americans, we still owned slaves, we denied women the right to vote,  and even today our right wing is having a hard time treating LGBT as equals. 

I don't think you want to live in a world without western secular government. I am sorry someone sold you the BS that "secular" means godless, when the truth is it merely means "neutral, neither for or against, but treat equally'.

Um no, there has been plenty of cruelty between Catholics and Protestants and Baptists ect ect in it's history. 

Checks on power and concepts like Jefferson's wall, are why we don't look like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[Acrobat]

If America were to suddenly get rid of the constitution, the first people oppressed would be non Christians, but after a while the sub sects of Christianity would go back to the same barbaric tribalism Europe had prior to the age of Enlightenment. 

Not really, if we suppose a right wing violent take over, the first people oppressed would be liberals, Jews like Ben Shapiro, and atheist like Richard Spencer would probably do well. In the age of Trump, all that matters is you toe the party line, not your religious affiliations, or lack there of.

I don't think you want to live in a world without western secular government. I am sorry someone sold you the BS that "secular" means godless, when the truth is it merely means "neutral, neither for or against, but treat equally'.

I support secular governments. Christianity in its original conception lacked any political power, or even pretense of acquiring it, and it was far more admirable and radical in that form, then once it took the thrown from Rome.

Um no, there has been plenty of cruelty between Catholics and Protestants and Baptists ect ect in it's history. 

Yea, but not much now, they seem to get along just fine, in spite of their differences.

[Brian37]

If America were to suddenly get rid of the constitution, the first people oppressed would be non Christians, but after a while the sub sects of Christianity would go back to the same barbaric tribalism Europe had prior to the age of Enlightenment. 

Not really, if we suppose a right wing violent take over, the first people oppressed would be liberals, Jews like Ben Shapiro, and atheist like Richard Spencer would probably do well. In the age of Trump, all that matters is you toe the party line, not your religious affiliations, or lack there of.

I don't think you want to live in a world without western secular government. I am sorry someone sold you the BS that "secular" means godless, when the truth is it merely means "neutral, neither for or against, but treat equally'.

I support secular governments. Christianity in its original conception lacked any political power, or even pretense of acquiring it, and it was far more admirable and radical in that form, then once it took the thrown from Rome.

Um no, there has been plenty of cruelty between Catholics and Protestants and Baptists ect ect in it's history. 

Yea, but not much now, they seem to get along just fine, in spite of their differences.

Damn you are ignorant of history. Even today if you go to Ireland, they literally have walled off communities between Catholics and Protestants. For you to claim that the different sects of Christianity get along is nonsense. 

FYI, as far as Rome falling to Christianity, that was not because a God caused it, it was because the old polytheism fell out of favor.

The early Church Rome adapted simply replaced the brutality of the prior polytheism with the brutality of the early Church. It is a myth that every single pope in it's history was kind and non violent. Christianity was spread throughout Europe through force the same way The ancient Roman polytheists used force to create their dynasty.

Just so you know, the obelisk in St Peter's square was the same obelisk brutal tyrant Caligula stole from Egypt. The Church would claim it was a symbol noting the defeat of evil, but the reality is all that use of it was, was saying, "Now we are the top dog."