Alevism

[Minimalist]

There's a sect -spesific to Turkey- called Alevism. (not to be confused with Alawi's of Syria) Alevi's differ from other sect dramatically. It's a mixture of shi'a sufism and turkic paganazim -göktanrı(Skygod) religion-, some even says it's a different religion than a sect of islam. I believe it's turkicized version of Islam.

Technically, I don't consider it as a sect in Islam because anything which excludes one of the five pillars of Islam cannot be Islam.

I see your point, Rayaan, but orthodoxy is defined by the winners. Xtians used to run around slaughtering each other over such doctrinal points too and would again if they thought they could get away with it.

[DeistPaladin]

There's a sect -spesific to Turkey- called Alevism. (not to be confused with Alawi's of Syria) Alevi's differ from other sect dramatically. It's a mixture of shi'a sufism and turkic paganazim -göktanrı(Skygod) religion-, some even says it's a different religion than a sect of islam. I believe it's turkicized version of Islam.

Technically, I don't consider it as a sect in Islam because anything which excludes one of the five pillars of Islam cannot be Islam.

Christians have the same issue splitting hairs over what constitutes "True Christian" ™.

Do Mormons count as Christians? Do Catholics? And then there are the early Christianities that had such varied beliefs about Jesus that none would be considered "Christian" today.

I have a hypothesis that as a religion becomes more dominant in a culture (meaning, greater percentage of the population follows it) they become proportionally more aware of and less tolerant of heterodox ideas in a religion.

I came across this hypothesis when I met with Christians in Indonesia, a majority Muslim country. In this land, there was little knowledge of the distinctions between Catholic and Protestant. A woman I was dating had no idea at first which group she belonged to. In America, being oblivious to this point is almost unheard of and many Protestants don't consider Catholics to be "Christians".

I wonder if American Muslims would be more likely to consider Alevists to be fellow Muslims than those in majority Muslim countries?

[annatar]

They want to make Islam fit with their cultural values.

They want to make islam fit with Human's cultural values instead of savages..

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I didn't mean to imply that sufism is a pantheist belief system, but it has pantheistic properties.

There we differ. My perception is that although the beliefs of some Sufis may have 'pantheistic elements' that is simply untrue as core belief of Sufism. Probably because Sufism does not have a core belief system or philosophy, although orders can be quite structured in beliefs and practices.

[Rayaan]

I wonder if American Muslims would be more likely to consider Alevists to be fellow Muslims than those in majority Muslim countries?

I think the American Muslims would be just as likely to not consider them as Muslims.

We can't always tell if a Muslim is a "true" Muslim or not, of course, because we can't read their intentions or look into their hearts to see if they truly believe or not. If they say that they are Muslims, then we should believe them unless there is a strong evidence for the contrary. Nevertheless, we can certainly say that the Alevis are not the "right" type of Muslims as opposed to saying that they are not "true" Muslims. The same goes for Christians and the followers of any other religion.

[Koldaramor]

Turkey is a secular state, but Sunni Islam the state religion always has been. Alevis, so I always have been second-class citizens. There is no discrimination between men and women in the Alevis. The worship is more private. The worship of other people do not bother with. For this, the more modern of Sunni Muslims.

[The Grand Nudger]

The "better" sect of Islam? Any proposition that begins with the word god, is by definition an argument from ignorance. It doesn't really matter what beliefs you attach to the word.

[ufster81]

alevism is unfortunately regarded as a sect of islam even by many of it's adherents... on the other hand, i am glad that we are rightly referred to as godless heathens by the orthodoxy. following is a summary of my experience as a self-professed atheist alevi dimili-kurdish observer of alevi politics and religious practices in turkey.

alevi community, which consists of turkish and kurdish alevis of turkey, is a quite diverse group and given the politics of turkey lately, a politicized diversity has provided for more confusion which makes it almost impossible to skim over in a short amount of time and still get the nuances. let me start with my description of different historical experiences with regards to different alevi groups in turkey in order to provide some background information.

turkish alevis are politically aligned with the state, especially the kemalist-authoritarian factions, as they feel especially indebted to the kemalist regime and it's pseudo-secularist policies that they believe to have protected them from sunni discrimination and even perhaps destruction. (they might have a point given the modern history of the republic) they are in the opinion that they practice a true form of islam and koran and hadith have been manipulated and manufactured to suit the needs of the muawiyah so they argue they don't have to follow certain tenants of orthodox islam. in certain cases, like god's permission to have sex with 9 year old kids, they actively denounce it as inaccurate history, immorality and perversion injected to islam by the followers of muawiyah. yet, they do believe in god, as described by abrahamic religions in general, all knowing, all powerful creator etc. they do believe prophet mohammad as the messenger of god and they elevate ali ibn abu talib to the status of the perfect example of a human being and view him and mohammed as two sides of the same coin. they have incorporated religious tolerance, elements of humanism and other parallels with the sufi tradition. these people are theists, without a doubt and they consider themselves muslims and true believers of islam. a recent poll among turkish alevis had shown that over 65% hold this belief. their tradition is closely linked with bektashi teachings yet constantly is moving closer to traditional islam due to certain state policies promoting this.


many kurdish alevis, which are mostly dimili (a language related to gorani) speaking alevis have a different outlook on their beliefs which stems from a different tradition, mostly inspired by various eastern belief systems as well as native iranian religions (such as ahl-e haqq) and sufism. this tradition is roughly based on accepting man as god and the cyclical purification/deification of man through controlling ones desires and actions. this tradition has no belief an all-powerful god, or in heaven and hell, in fact the tradition is most critical of orthodox islam using the many arguments of atheists today with regards to their hypocrisy on bribing god and basing their morality on a carrots and sticks system. kurdish alevism does regard ali quite highly but what they do is to actually symbolize him as a moral guide, even to the point of making up stories about him to add certain characteristics they hold to be valuable. kurdish alevis regard many turkish alevis as "kılıç artığı - sword residue/remains" to imply that these were people conquered whose lives were spared because they moderated their views to be more inline with mainstream islam. around 15% of kurdish alevis refer to themselves as atheists, around 60% in total refer to alevism as a culture rather than a religion and thus not a part of islam. this disgust for the orthodoxy and it's authority also stems from the poor relations kurdish alevis have traditionally had with the turks and the turkish state, especially during and after the 1938 genocidal massacres committed by the kemalist regime that aimed to assimilate the local population of dersim, which i'm glad to say have failed so far.

anyway, i hope i could be of some help and not caused further confusion.