Identity Politics

[EgoDeath]

She failed, then..in your estimation, to properly virtue signal.  Is this, broadly, your view of what identity politics is or operates on?

I think that this is one of the unfortunate consequences of the use of identity politics. Do I think this is what identity politics means to do, so to speak? No. But regardless of what is intended, this is often what ends up happening with people who don't tick all the right boxes.

It has created a very tribal atmosphere where, if you belong to social group X, you better damn believe in A, B, C, D, E and F. If you belong to social group X, but only believe in A, B, C, E and F, but not D, you stand to be exiled and told that you're not truly part of social group X, but rather you're the enemy.

Once again, is this what identity politics means to do? Of course not. The definition of identity politics is innocuous on its own, but it seems to be weaponized by radical people who want to push their agenda at any and all costs, and that's why I'm sick of it. This weaponization of a seemingly harmless concept just isn't helping anyone.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is it possible that it didn't create the tribal atmosphere...but that instead..as the author argues, the tribal atmosphere has always existed and is the mode under which we all operate?  That failure to acknowledge this produces tribal disparity? That all politics, fundamentally, are identity politics?

Similarly, and as I was putting to yon, do you think it might be possible that "identity politics" has been weaponized as a way to make you eat your own by your identity opponents, not other leftists, but those in the right? That they've successfully framed the issue and infiltrated your groups cultural content to your detriment in absence of facts? What would you do if this were the case..how would you recognize it, and how would you, as liberals, push back?

and this part..is really interesting to me..

It has created a very tribal atmosphere where, if you belong to social group X, you better damn believe in A, B, C, D, E and F. If you belong to social group X, but only believe in A, B, C, E and F, but not D, you stand to be exiled and told that you're not truly part of social group X, but rather you're the enemy.

Do you not see this as, itself, a form of intra-tribal identity politics? Them deciding that you're not a "real liberal" and you deciding, in return..that they are not "real liberals"? Each of you considering each other the enemy.

That feeds back into the questions from before, who weaponized this, and who benefits from it's weaponization?

[EgoDeath]

Is it possible that it didn't create the tribal atmosphere...but that instead..as the author argues, the tribal atmosphere has always existed and is the mode under which we all operate?  That failure to acknowledge this produces tribal disparity?  That all politics, fundamentally, are identity politics?

Similarly, and as I was putting to yon, do you think it might be possible that "identity politics" has been weaponized as a way to make you eat your own by your identity opponents, not other leftists, but those in the right?  That they've successfully framed the issue and infiltrated your groups cultural content to your detriment in absence of facts?

Isn't it possible that this tribal atmosphere exists because of identity politics? Where is the evidence that all politics are identity politics? Where is the evidence that this is being weaponized by my "identity opponents?" Is it possible that you're assuming that I even have "identity opponents?" Isn't it possible that my opponents simply oppose my ideas and not my entire identity? Is the only summation of your identity the ideas you hold and nothing more? Can't we all just ask questions and wait for someone else to make a statement so we can retort with memorized talking points we learned from some book we read?

Isn't it possible you took one political science class at a community college in Colorado and now think you're an expert in politics?

Sure, plenty of things are possible. But the fact is, opposing someone's ideas is not opposing their identity. That's a false equivalence.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is it possible that it didn't create the tribal atmosphere...but that instead..as the author argues, the tribal atmosphere has always existed and is the mode under which we all operate?  That failure to acknowledge this produces tribal disparity?  That all politics, fundamentally, are identity politics?

Similarly, and as I was putting to yon, do you think it might be possible that "identity politics" has been weaponized as a way to make you eat your own by your identity opponents, not other leftists, but those in the right?  That they've successfully framed the issue and infiltrated your groups cultural content to your detriment in absence of facts?

Isn't it possible that this tribal atmosphere exists because of identity politics? Where is the evidence that all politics are identity politics?

Well, the author lays it out quite competently and explicitly that "identity politics" has been here, at least in the us.,..since before there was a us.  More generally, ask your self what politics is other than two (or more) groups with differences vying for power.

Where is the evidence that this is being weaponized by my "identity oppononents?"

Plainly stated in wingnut conservative rhetoric and all over the internet.,,wherem tellingly, liberal outlets have begun to breathlessly repeat conservative rhetoric (for any number of reasons good or bad).  Ultimately advancing the interests of the right wing identity. The constant rightward shift.  That "identity politics" is toxic and will destroy you is nothing more or less than a summary of the entire rightwing position on the left.

Is it possible that you're assuming that I even have "identity opponents?" Isn't it possible that my opponenets simply oppose my ideas and no my entire identity? Is the only summation of your identity the ideas you hold and nothing more? Can't we all just ask questions and wait for someone else to make a statement so we can retort with memorized talking points we learned from some book we read?

Ive assumed (?) that you're a liberal...mostly because you;ve indicated as much.  That means that you have de facto and de jure identity opponents.  

Isn't it possible you took one political science class at a community college in Colorado and now think you're an expert in politics?

Colorado?  I wish.  That place is fuckin gorgeous..and I'd be in the weed business!

Sure, plenty of things are possible. But the fact is, opposing someone's ideas is not opposing their identity. That's a false equivalence.

Political opinion and ideas either profoundly inform our identities..or, depending on who you're looking at, literally are their identities.  Alt Right ideology is an identity.  Paleoconservative ideology is an identity.  It;s a good question..though.  If someone asked you to describe who you are, would you include "liberal"?   Kindof a rhetorical question..right?

I ask these questions because it's interesting to me, and touches on other subjects of even greater interest. Basically fetish porn. As an outsider to the struggle between liberals and conservatives, though..I'm watching a slow moving coup and wonder how the liberal set perceives or experiences it. Like a game of mafia, seen from the side of mafia...do you notice/perceive/wonder that there's scum in your midst, and that this scum has convinced you that another towny is the real scum?

[EgoDeath]

One's political ideas are not the entire summation of their identity. That I'm a liberal and have opponents does not mean they oppose my identity, but rather my ideas.

Politics =/= identity politics.

Understanding this, you can understand that one's identity is not and does not have to be a precursor to what ideas one holds. Some ideas are held because of what one's identity is, and that's okay too sometimes. But ideas can exist on their own and be judged for their logical or rational merit rather than being judged on who is supposed to hold those ideas and why.

Identity politics seems to be the problem here.

[The Grand Nudger]

One's political ideas are not the entire summation of their identity. That I'm a liberal and have opponents does not mean they oppose my identity, but rather my ideas.

In politics, they are.  It cant have escaped you that the right considers you an unamerican commie by simple virtue of your liberal identity? They shout that to the rooftops nightly.

Politics =/= identity politics.

IDK that this statement can actually be argued to be true.  There is no single political issue that is not..as the author put it, imbricated with identity from the very outset.  

Understanding this, you can understand that one's identity is not and does not have to be a precursor to what ideas one holds. Some ideas are held because of what one's identity is, and that's okay too sometimes. But ideas can exist on their own and be judged for their logical or rational merit rather than being judged on who is supposed to hold those ideas and why.

Identity politics seems to be the problem here.

By what metric?  It wins the dems votes - arguing against "identity politics" immediately tanks a person as..more or less, a nazi. It's politically suicidal (or, conversely, a pro if a person is a rightwing nutjob and/or enjoys watching dems get purity purged).   That's only a problem if you're a rightwing nut...which you aren't.

It seems as if the reality of identity politics has been utterly divorced from the edifice of identity politics as a weaponized slur the right flings at the left like so much shit in a chimp exhibit., That this divorce was entirely one sided in it's benefits. You, as a liberal, stand to gain nothing and lose it all. Nothing would be more convenient to rightwing identity politics than that the left abandoned it's own. It leaves them holding, in their sole possession, a compelling tool....and turns you into a hypocritical liar. In the minds of the vox populi.

Working as intended?

[EgoDeath]

Your projections of what "the right" thinks of me are wholly unrealistic (not to mention they're not even based on an actual person's actual opinion) and is a testament to the divide identity politics has created. That's like saying you think everyone on the right is a white nationalist, Hitler loving, conservative Christian and that you think so because you're on the left.

You still haven't demonstrated that politics = identity politics either. So I can agree to disagree. No big deal.

And yet, arguing identity politics HAS proven to be political and social suicide for some on the left as well as the right, so you're just flat out wrong; it's not only a problem for people on the right.

And I just said it's not one-sided, that BOTH sides have been outed for not subscribing to the status quo? Are you retarded or just not reading what I'm actually writing? Right-wing folks are using identity politics on their own people as much as the left is. The idea that there's some conspiracy by the right to use identity politics to turn people on the left against each other is just bizarre and paranoid.

Jesus khemikal the shit you say sometimes is so dumb it's honestly alarming how you always think you're right about everything. Talking to you is like throwing ice at a brick wall. The sad part is is you will go to your grave thinking you have it figured out, that's just the type of person you seem to be. Maybe you're different in real life, who knows? Interacting with you is almost always a complete waste of time and energy.

[The Grand Nudger]

Your projections of what "the right" thinks of me are wholly unrealistic (not to mention they're not even based on an actual person's actual opinion) and is a testament to the divide identity politics has created. That's like saying you think everyone on the right is a white nationalist, Hitler loving, conservative Christian and that you think so because you're on the left.

Not sure how to respond to this.  I don;t have to project anything about what the right thinks?  They have broadcast organs?  They really do think that you're a crypto-marxist out to destroy america.....?

(which is ironic...because -I'm- the crypotmarxist, but not a liberal voter...lol.)

You still haven't demonstrated that politics = identity politics either. So I can agree to disagree. No big deal.

Well..sure, we can always agree to disagree..but that doesn;t mean that something hasn;t been shown.  Again..what political issue -isn't- two or more groups vying for limited political authority?

And yet, arguing identity politics HAS proven to be political and social suicide for some on the left as well as the right, so you're just flat out wrong; it's not only a problem for people on the right.

It's only suicidal for you.  Identity politics is a pro to the right.  That's their brand.  You and the right aren't playing the same game, by the same rules.  

And I just said it's not one-sided, that BOTH sides have been outed for not subscribing to the status quo? Are you retarded or just not reading what I'm actually writing? Right-wing folks are using identity politics on their own people as much as the left is. The idea that there's some conspiracy by the right to use identity politics to turn people on the left against each other is just bizarre and paranoid.

Is it?  That would suggest that analytics are "bizarre and paranoid".The right has overtly used the issue of "identity politics"...as they tell it, to turn the left into a bickering morass of endless defense and offense.  It's their new wedge..and they don't exactly try to hide that?

Jesus khemikal the shit you say sometimes is so dumb it's honestly alarming how you always think you're right about everything. Talking to you is like throwing ice at a brick wall. The sad part is is you will go to your grave thinking you have it figured out, that's just the type of person you seem to be. Maybe you're different in real life, who knows? Interacting with you is almost always a complete waste of time and energy.

Yes yes yes..I'm a dumb dumby because I'm suggesting something terrifying.  That the left has been wholly gamed by the right to the point that the left is now breathlessly repeating nutball alt right propaganda.  The trouble with this theory, is that the left actually -is- doing that.  That's the rightward shift.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilcRS5eUpwk

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[Yonadav]

Your projections of what "the right" thinks of me are wholly unrealistic (not to mention they're not even based on an actual person's actual opinion) and is a testament to the divide identity politics has created. That's like saying you think everyone on the right is a white nationalist, Hitler loving, conservative Christian and that you think so because you're on the left.

You still haven't demonstrated that politics = identity politics either. So I can agree to disagree. No big deal.

And yet, arguing identity politics HAS proven to be political and social suicide for some on the left as well as the right, so you're just flat out wrong; it's not only a problem for people on the right.

And I just said it's not one-sided, that BOTH sides have been outed for not subscribing to the status quo? Are you retarded or just not reading what I'm actually writing? Right-wing folks are using identity politics on their own people as much as the left is. The idea that there's some conspiracy by the right to use identity politics to turn people on the left against each other is just bizarre and paranoid.

Jesus khemikal the shit you say sometimes is so dumb it's honestly alarming how you always think you're right about everything. Talking to you is like throwing ice at a brick wall. The sad part is is you will go to your grave thinking you have it figured out, that's just the type of person you seem to be. Maybe you're different in real life, who knows? Interacting with you is almost always a complete waste of time and energy.

Actually, I sort of believe that there is a little bit of a conspiracy to promote the popularity of identity politics on the left. Identity politics gets a lot of positive spin in the media-- which is owned by billionaires. And identity politics have been tearing the left apart. Gae is a pretty confused person who seems to think that socially liberal positions and identity politics are the same thing. For example when he claimed Bernie Sanders drips identity politics. No, Bernie Sanders drips socially liberal positions. Slamming him for giving a speech after the SOTU was identity politics.

[The Grand Nudger]

Billionaires vs the common man..is..what..exactly? Let's play an elaborate game of Identity Politics Taboo...and explain that without using the term "identity politics"?