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"Hail Satan?" (2019)
#11
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 3, 2019 at 3:47 pm)Yonadav Wrote: They're not. But if I were to meet an educated Jew who has been very religiously observant and became a Frankist sincerely-- that would be interesting. Very interesting.

I had never heard of Jacob Frank. That's an interesting movement. It's always hard to tell about history, but there are serious satanists and play-acting ones. It sounds as if he was deadly serious.

I've read quite a bit about Satanist and other occult circles in late-19th century Paris. Huysmans writes about this in some of his novels, and more recently there are non-fiction books. To some extent this was dress-up, and people having fun being naughty. But of course to be a real Satanist you have to believe in God, and you have to believe in real occult forces, and you have to take seriously the fact that Hell is a big deal. 

The "satanists" in the video don't come across that way to me. They wear the costumes that, in contemporary America, declare that they are rebellious people, as depicted on TV. They come across as sarcastic people who enjoy poking others in the eye.
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#12
Smile 
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)


I never thought I'd live long enough to become a grumpy old bastard. Here I am, killing it!
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#13
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 3, 2019 at 3:47 pm)Yonadav Wrote: Anton Lavey came off as just being a spiritually bored individual who capitalized titillating satanic nonsense. Atheists playing games with satanism are boring, because there is nothing about a satanic atheist that can be taken seriously. It is essentially just a form of cultural misappropriation and probable misrepresentation.

This short bit of your post shows that you know absolutely NOTHING about the Satanic philosophy and that your thoughts (as well as Belaqua's thoughts) on this subject should not be taken seriously.
"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live -- moreover, the only one." - E.M. Cloran
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#14
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 5, 2019 at 8:31 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:
(March 3, 2019 at 3:47 pm)Yonadav Wrote: "Anton Lavey came off as just being a spiritually bored individual who capitalized titillating satanic nonsense. Atheists playing games with satanism are boring, because there is nothing about a satanic atheist that can be taken seriously. It is essentially just a form of cultural misappropriation and probable misrepresentation.

This short bit of your post shows that you know absolutely NOTHING about the Satanic philosophy and that your thoughts (as well as Belaqua's thoughts) on this subject should not be taken seriously."
  

Perhaps wrong of me, but I've never been able to take Anton LaVey any more seriously than I take  Aleister  Crowley or Gerald Gardner.

These concocted beliefs are deeply enmeshed with the Christian  tradition with its tendency to conflate Pan with Satan.

He lost me when  he claimed an ideological link with Ayn Rand.  Also love to see his explanation of his clim to have been influenced by
Nietzsche
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#15
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 6, 2019 at 12:39 am)fredd bear Wrote:
(March 5, 2019 at 8:31 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: This short bit of your post shows that you know absolutely NOTHING about the Satanic philosophy and that your thoughts (as well as Belaqua's thoughts) on this subject should not be taken seriously."
  

Perhaps wrong of me, but I've never been able to take Anton LaVey any more seriously than I take  Aleister  Crowley or Gerald Gardner.

These concocted beliefs are deeply enmeshed with the Christian  tradition with its tendency to conflate Pan with Satan.

He lost me when  he claimed an ideological link with Ayn Rand.  Also love to see his explanation of his clim to have been influenced by
Nietzsche

You don't have to "take him seriously" or agree with his ideas. But certain statements that people make show me how little they actually know about the subject. Which is fine; if you want to make ignorant statements, or make statements out of ignorance, about a movement you know nothing about, more power to you. I certainly disagree with LaVey on plenty of things. But if you're going to claim you don't take him seriously, I have to ask why? What do you know about Satanism or the origins of the Church of Satan?

What do you know about what LaVey thinks about Rand or Nietzsche?

I find that people see the showmanship and theatrics surrounding Satanism and immediately write it off as some gimmick. But it isn't. It's a legitimately cohesive life philosophy that a few people I know personally follow and they're all very successful, intelligent individuals. Granted, that is totally anecdotal and doesn't necessarily say anything about Satanism itself. I'm sure there are plenty of wanna-be goths and emo kids who get into Satanism to look edgy and cool, but I'd bet my bottom dollar LaVey, if he were alive today, would scoff at those people, and rightly so.
"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live -- moreover, the only one." - E.M. Cloran
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#16
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 6, 2019 at 6:50 am)EgoDeath Wrote: they're all very successful

Successful at what? At the same things most people want to be successful at? 

Or does Satanism provide actual alternative values that would look to Christians like something unsuccessful? 

The narcissism of small differences can play up surface traits, when the real goals remain the same.

Why would anybody want a statue of their deity set up on a small town courthouse lawn right next to the ten commandments? That's reducing Satan to one more selection in the cafeteria of religions. It's not opposing bourgeois American conformity, it's joining it. It's demanding equality by leveling way down. 

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#17
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 2:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: Successful at what? At the same things most people want to be successful at? 

I have to wonder, what definition of success could I possibly give you that would satisfy you? Probably none. You clearly seem to think Satanism is some social, dress-up club for atheists or something. I'm not really sure, but just understand that this is totally wrong and comes from a place of complete ignorance. You're clearly uninformed on the subject, or thoroughly misinformed. I'm not sure which and couldn't care less.

(March 7, 2019 at 2:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: Or does Satanism provide actual alternative values that would look to Christians like something unsuccessful? 

The fact that you wonder if Satanism "provide[s any] values" shows you know nothing about the entire movement that you're trying to discredit. How insanely arrogant.

If you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about, I'd be willing to have a conversation about Satanism.

But I'm convinced that nothing I could tell you about the philosophy would change your mind at all. You're clearly entrenched in your position, which is totally and completely uninformed. If you're comfortable with that, then bravo. That makes this another clear example of disingenuous, uninformed nonsense from you.
"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live -- moreover, the only one." - E.M. Cloran
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#18
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 2:23 am)Belaqua Wrote: Or does Satanism provide actual alternative values that would look to Christians like something unsuccessful? 

The narcissism of small differences can play up surface traits, when the real goals remain the same.

Satanism is very Machiavellian, and definitely focuses on the selfish wants and hedonistic enjoyment of the self over feigned altruism. You are a good friend because you personally like having friends, not because someone says it's the right way to behave.
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#19
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 7:05 am)EgoDeath Wrote: I have to wonder, what definition of success could I possibly give you that would satisfy you?

The satanic movements in France that I've studied were clear about their opposition to mainstream culture of the time. They rejected standards of success as measured by wealth, status, comfort, etc. 

It's impossible to imagine them asking to put up an expensive effigy in a government building, as if their desire was to be accepted by the mainstream they were rejecting. 

So I'm not asking for some absolute definition of success; I'm asking what those people in the movie trailer count as success. I don't know why that would be difficult. You used the word "successful" so I thought you'd have some clear idea as to what you meant. Is their definition in opposition to American values in general? 

When you say you know successful satanists, does this mean they have healthy relationships and a nice house? Or does it mean, along the lines of Baudelaire, that they live in extreme states of emotion, don't care at all what the government thinks of them, and die young? 

Think of Roland Barthes' Mythologies, or Baudrillard's talk about simulacra. They showed how most forms of rebellion in our time only serve to reconstruct mainstream values in new ways. If you believe that the satanists in the movie trailer aren't doing this, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

(March 7, 2019 at 7:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: Satanism is very Machiavellian, and definitely focuses on the selfish wants and hedonistic enjoyment of the self over feigned altruism.  You are a good friend because you personally like having friends, not because someone says it's the right way to behave.

This is interesting to hear. It's very different from the French "inverted Catholicism" types that I've read about, which took God very seriously. 

Selfish wants and hedonistic enjoyment would be far more in keeping with modern US culture. A different way of hustling. Pragmatic about ends, less interested in duties.
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#20
RE: "Hail Satan?" (2019)
(March 7, 2019 at 7:21 am)bennyboy Wrote: Satanism is very Machiavellian, and definitely focuses on the selfish wants and hedonistic enjoyment of the self over feigned altruism. You are a good friend because you personally like having friends, not because someone says it's the right way to behave.

I wouldn't say the two are mutually exclusive, but you're along the right lines. It's almost as if you've actually read up on Satanism a bit. Imagine that @Belaqua !

(March 7, 2019 at 7:56 am)Belaqua Wrote: The satanic movements in France that I've studied were clear about their opposition to mainstream culture of the time. They rejected standards of success as measured by wealth, status, comfort, etc. 

It's impossible to imagine them asking to put up an expensive effigy in a government building, as if their desire was to be accepted by the mainstream they were rejecting. 

So I'm not asking for some absolute definition of success; I'm asking what those people in the movie trailer count as success. I don't know why that would be difficult. You used the word "successful" so I thought you'd have some clear idea as to what you meant. Is their definition in opposition to American values in general? 

When you say you know successful satanists, does this mean they have healthy relationships and a nice house? Or does it mean, along the lines of Baudelaire, that they live in extreme states of emotion, don't care at all what the government thinks of them, and die young? 

Think of Roland Barthes' Mythologies, or Baudrillard's talk about simulacra. They showed how most forms of rebellion in our time only serve to reconstruct mainstream values in new ways. If you believe that the satanists in the movie trailer aren't doing this, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

What is your obsession with Satanism being some rejection of mainstream culture?

Once again, a clear indication that you have no clue what you're talking about.


(March 7, 2019 at 7:56 am)Belaqua Wrote: This is interesting to hear. It's very different from the French "inverted Catholicism" types that I've read about

Woah! What a surprise that you're not familiar with a very basic Satanic concept. Holy shit. Doh

I think we're done here, bud. You've demonstrated what I thought to be true to be actually true: you're talking out of your ass.

Read The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey and read The Satanic Scriptures by Peter Gilmore. Start there. Or don't, I don't care. But then, MAYBE then, you'll begin to have a rudimentary grasp on what Satanism is. And maybe you still disagree with it, which is totally fine! There's a lot in Satanism I don't agree with; I can't say I consider myself a Satanist. But to sit here and discredit an entire philosophy while not being read up on that philosophy a is a fucking joke.
"The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live -- moreover, the only one." - E.M. Cloran
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