*Matthew enters*

[Matthew]

I'll repeat what I said in my last post: "I did not perceive that God was pursuing me. Rather, the repeated experiences of trying and failing to avoid the conclusion I did not want to arrive at certainly gave me the impression that I was not simply wrestling with my own thoughts but with something outside of myself. After my conversion, I understood that something to be God Himself."

You didn't answer my question Matthew, once again, how do you know you didn't hallucinate or perceive this external agent, this god? How are you certain it was a deity communicating with you and not some other chemical imbalance in the brain brought upon by stress, depression, anxiety, a nervous breakdown, or some other mental disorder? Not saying it was necessarily any of those listed, of course, but how did you rule out all the other possible natural explanations and conclude your thinking some deity outside the real world was responsible?

I didn't say that I thought God was communicating with me. You have misunderstood me; my saying that "I did not perceive God" was to clarify that I did not directly sense or interact with God prior to my conversion (at least not to my knowledge). My speaking of "wrestling with something outside of myself" is referring to the feeling that my thinking was being guided in a particular direction despite my willingness to go in another, and my interpretation of that as being God's guidance is made in the light of my new-found beliefs after the fact.

This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

What interpretation of Christianity is this? You seem to be quoting Christian soteriology yet it adds another requirement of being predestined to be saved which contradicts the doctrine of repentance.

You will have to explain exactly what this contradiction is based on what you understand Scripture to teach regarding predestination and repentance.

[Zen Badger]

This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

I would like to know how you have arrived at this conclusion since the bible and every other christian we've had on this forum thinks differently.

It is also refreshing to see that with all the death, pain and misery on this planet that god consistantly ignores,he was able to find the time to convince you to be a christian.

[OnlyNatural]

My speaking of "wrestling with something outside of myself" is referring to the feeling that my thinking was being guided in a particular direction despite my willingness to go in another

Everyone has the experience of wrestling with competing desires or courses of action. I regularly struggle with the feeling that part of me wants to go in one direction, while another part is holding me back. There is no reason to attribute this inner struggle to a god or anything outside your own brain.

my interpretation of that as being God's guidance is made in the light of my new-found beliefs after the fact.

This reasoning is a bit biased and post hoc, don't you think? If you had converted to a Hindu belief system instead, you would no doubt have interpretted such past experience as guidance from Vishnu.

[Matthew]

Hi Zen Badger,

This is not the Christian understanding of "becoming a Christian". To become a Christian, God must accept you. A person becomes a Christian because of what God does, not because of what they do. God cares very little about whether human beings believe that He exists.

I would like to know how you have arrived at this conclusion since the bible and every other christian we've had on this forum thinks differently.

It is the view that "regeneration precedes faith" (monergism). To see what Scripture teaches about this, just look at the conversions in the New Testament. Look at Paul (Saul): what is it that he believed or did that led to his having faith? Or how about Lydia (Acts 16)?

It is also refreshing to see that with all the death, pain and misery on this planet that god consistantly ignores,he was able to find the time to convince you to be a christian.

It was my being convicted of the fact that I am responsible for pain, misery and death that began the whole process. Perhaps you would think it better that God simply wiped out human beings to prevent our evil; in which case, I am thankful that you are not God.

---

My speaking of "wrestling with something outside of myself" is referring to the feeling that my thinking was being guided in a particular direction despite my willingness to go in another

Everyone has the experience of wrestling with competing desires or courses of action. I regularly struggle with the feeling that part of me wants to go in one direction, while another part is holding me back. There is no reason to attribute this inner struggle to a god or anything outside your own brain.

I am not attributing the struggle to God - the struggle was my own - but the direction that the struggle took me in. I was certainly not in control of the direction, and there are different available explanations as to why my thinking led to the conclusions it did. But importantly, any explanation can only be made in the light of prior beliefs - the naturalist must interpret in the light of her naturalism, and the Christian in the light of her Christianity.

my interpretation of that as being God's guidance is made in the light of my new-found beliefs after the fact.

This reasoning is a bit biased and post hoc, don't you think? If you had converted to a Hindu belief system instead, you would no doubt have interpretted such past experience as guidance from Vishnu.

No more than any other explanation we accept is "biased" by our worldview. I don't know much about Hinduism, and it would depend on whether "guidance" is a Hindu category of thought (I have no idea).

[Zen Badger]

Hi Zen Badger,

I would like to know how you have arrived at this conclusion since the bible and every other christian we've had on this forum thinks differently.

It is the view that "regeneration precedes faith" (monergism). To see what Scripture teaches about this, just look at the conversions in the New Testament. Look at Paul (Saul): what is it that he believed or did that led to his having faith? Or how about Lydia (Acts 16)?

Ahh, so god has decided to make you one of his special little friends(the elect) and is going to ignore the rest of us therefore consigning us to hell. How very merciful.

It is also refreshing to see that with all the death, pain and misery on this planet that god consistantly ignores,he was able to find the time to convince you to be a christian.

It was my being convicted of the fact that I am responsible for pain, misery and death that began the whole process.
Perhaps you would think it better that God simply wiped out human beings to prevent our evil; in which case, I am thankful that you are not God.

No, I think god does not exist and therefore is not in a position to do anything.

But I find it interesting that you think that you are responsible for all the misery in the world, that's some guilt trip you're on there.....

[Matthew]

Ahh, so god has decided to make you one of his special little friends(the elect) and is going to ignore the rest of us therefore consigning us to hell. How very merciful.

God elects people in order to bless others, not to exclude them or ignore them (e.g. see the call of Abraham in Genesis 12 - Abraham is chosen in order to bless the nations, and this is always the purpose of God's people).

No, I think god does not exist and therefore is not in a position to do anything.

Your own beliefs have little to do with the internal critique that you were making.

But I find it interesting that you think that you are responsible for all the misery in the world, that's some guilt trip you're on there.....

Exaggerating what I said is not the most convincing of responses.

[Welsh cake]

I didn't say that I thought God was communicating with me.

Yes you did. You said you were the intended recipient of God's thoughts. You are saying that the Christian God is, or was, communicating with you at some point in events that led up to your conversion.

You have misunderstood me; my saying that "I did not perceive God" was to clarify that I did not directly sense or interact with God prior to my conversion (at least not to my knowledge).

Why the backpedaling? If you did not sense the consciousness of a deity then why make the claim in the first place? Why say you were under the "impression" it was god from your extrasensory perception/experience when you weren't having a paranormal experience to begin with?

My speaking of "wrestling with something outside of myself" is referring to the feeling that my thinking was being guided in a particular direction despite my willingness to go in another, and my interpretation of that as being God's guidance is made in the light of my new-found beliefs after the fact.

Once again, I don't doubt your testimonial account that you "sensed something", though my standards of evidence remain unconvinced that it was a god involved because trying to demonstrate to anyone else you had a brush with the supernatural is simply unrealistic. A sensation or revelation that you are "part of something bigger" is a natural human response we all experience at some point or other in our lives, theists attribute it to god or gods, but atheists can and do experience this without any requirement for supernatural deities because the feeling is the awe of comprehending a complex natural reality that we all exist in it.

When you behold the size, scope and scale of the cosmos, you are a witness to the cosmos, any subsequent human response of elated joy is not evidence of a god, neither is a downward spiral of depression evidence of said god's demonic foil. Your feelings and mine have no bearing upon reality, they are irrelevant.

You will have to explain exactly what this contradiction is based on what you understand Scripture to teach regarding predestination and repentance.

Matthew can you answer one question? I'm asking you politely what branch of Christian theology that deals with salvation you would regard as true, because it is through this interpretation of the soteriology you are establishing what makes someone a Christian.

[everythingafter]

You will have to explain exactly what this contradiction is based on what you understand Scripture to teach regarding predestination and repentance.

Matthew can you answer one question? I'm asking you politely what branch of Christian theology that deals with salvation you would regard as true, because it is through this interpretation of the soteriology you are establishing what makes someone a Christian.

I'm might be familiar with the doctrine to which Matthew is referring. There's, of course, the old school Calvinistic predetermination, in which God chose beforehand the precise people who will inhabit heaven and who will be among the damned. I don't know if this is Matthew's doctrine of choice. Most evangelicals today don't take that kind of hardline stance toward salvation. Most, so far as I know, still say that one actually does need to believe in Christ as their personal savior to inhabit heaven. But some evangelicals add a clever twist. Since us choosing God puts the onus on us and makes God seem a bit passive in the matter, God choosing us puts the action back on God, making him seem more proactive in wooing us into the fold. Although the latter does seem a bit self-absorbed and conceited. The Bible implies that it's both ways at different times, from God's choosing various leaders of the OT to lead Israel, to Jesus' "whosoever believes" bit in John. The new, more clever doctrine could be an amalgamation of the two, thus unifying themes of the entire Bible. That would only be my literary interpretation.

In any case, I wonder, like I'm sure many on this site have, why a well-meaning seeker (like myself at one time) must pray so hard and long for the slightest bit of personal revelation in order for my rational mind to consider belief. And we now have our answer. I can't choose God at all! He can only choose me. Perhaps Calvin was right all along and most of us, if he existed, would be SOL anyway!

[downbeatplumb]

Another ex-atheist christian.
They just keep coming dont they.

[Matthew]

I didn't say that I thought God was communicating with me.

Yes you did. You said you were the intended recipient of God's thoughts. You are saying that the Christian God is, or was, communicating with you at some point in events that led up to your conversion.

This is getting a little tedious now as I have now repeatedly described my conversion, making quite clear what it did and did not involve, and the difference between my prior and posterior understandings of the experiences. Let me make things quite plain:

Prior to conversion: I did not perceive, sense, observe, hear or communicate with God in any way. I did not think that God was interacting with me. I struggled with my own thoughts, and I acknowledged that the direction my thinking was going was not anything to do with my will, and I did not desire to acknowledge the Christian God. I recognised that I was being drawn towards the Christian God, despite my desires against this. Because of these desires, I was under the impression that something else (perhaps chance, necessity, God's direction, I did not know) was involved other than myself.

After conversion: I interpret the process described above as being directed and guided by the Christian God. Not speaking directly to me, or entering into my thoughts, or altering my thoughts, or anything of that sort. Simply that the reason that I was drawn towards the Christian God was beings He had drawn me to Himself through the process.

Matthew can you answer one question? I'm asking you politely what branch of Christian theology that deals with salvation you would regard as true, because it is through this interpretation of the soteriology you are establishing what makes someone a Christian.

First off, let me make clear an important distinction in case of any confusion: the difference between becoming a Christian and being a Christian. We are talking about the former. This process of becoming a Christian (which Jesus calls being "born again" in John 3) is called "regeneration". With respect to regeneration, I take the Reformed view that regeneration is solely the work of God, and that it precedes faith.