I Don't Care

[Cod]

Let's get this thread back on track.







Any excuse for a bit of Wendy

[I_am_not_mafia]

I would say that not identifying someone the way they identify is not dehumanizing.  

But talking about them in that way and treating them that way is dehumanising.

I wrote a post about this very subject on AD. I don't want to repeat myself so I shall just copy and paste a couple of paragraphs of relevant text here.

If there's one thing that trans people are good for it's to be fodder for other people's idle debates about their very existence. Very basic things that everyone else just takes for granted get debated as if it's some pressing issue when it is not. Like where they can go to the toilet, whether they can have sex without having to reveal their medical history, whether they can get married or adopt, access medical services, where they change their clothes or use the showers, whether they can take part or compete in sport, whether they should be given help from rape crisis centres or women's refuges, or change their name or birth certificate to something that won't lead to them being openly discriminated against, or whether they should be allowed to be put in a prison that won't get them raped on a daily basis. Generally the message is, yes, we'll allow you to exist because we can't actually kill you off, but don't you dare think about actually living because we consider you to be deluded, psychologically ill and pretending to be something that you are not. It is because of this that trans people talk about being erased. Because their very lives and core identities are being negated.

I'm not putting a negative valuation on any body form or psychological association with it.  I don't think trans-women are men in disguise.  Nor do I think they are identical in all regards to most females of the human species.  They are something different than either-- but they are certainly fully human, and I wouldn't want to put them down for expressing themselves however they like.

Thing is that transitioning is not just about matching the external appearance with internal identity. It's also about being socialised in the gender that you feel yourself to be. Because it's not just about reverting the physical effects of testosterone, it's also about rolling back the wrong socialisation and relearning your position in life.

Trans-women are different from other women. But you could also make the same argument about cisgendered women who have undergone FGM, or cisgendered women who have been sexually abused as children or any other radically different childhood. Trans-women were denied the upbringing that cisgendered women generally take for granted and this does affect how they have developed as people. How can you feel comfortable hugging other women and being as equally tactile with them for example if you have had a history of being physically beaten up at school and told from a young age that other girls see you as different? Same way some trans-men are not sure what it means when another man punches them affectionately in the arm. But as I said earlier, this is not exclusively a transgendered problem as it applies to any person who has had their life interrupted by traumatic events.

All humans are a mixture of nature and nurture. There is how our brains have developed in a way that doesn't change. But also our environment which continues to influence how our brain re-wires itself. This is why counselling doesn't get rid of transsexuality, or body dysmorphia, in the same way counselling does not stop someone being autistic or a sociopath (not saying they are the same). But in the same way, a person's environment can either exacerbate or ameliorate how they have naturally developed. So living as the gender that you feel yourself to be, being seen and thus being treated as that, helps shape the rest of your brain to be consistent with the parts that cannot change.

Transsexuals transition to reduce the divergence between their natural development and their nurture. This isn't just physical. This includes repairing the damage from having the wrong upbringing and trying to live the life that is wrong for how you have naturally developed. And you can't do this if everyone is debating whether you should even be living as the person that you really are.

So while the transgendered label is useful to acknowledge that many trans-people have parts of their brains that have developed consistent with how they were assigned at birth. This may be because they are 'intersex' in the brain, but it's also down to having being treated as the wrong sex for so long.

Put it like this bennyboy. If you thought that a trans-women were woman then why would it matter to you that they didn't tell you about their medical history? Do you also care about a cisgendered woman's medical history? Say that they are infertile? Or maybe if they suffer from Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and are XY but were assigned female at birth? What about a trans-woman who is XXY because they have Klinefelter syndrome and were therefore assigned male at birth but still have many physical aspects specific to women, such as period pains?

I know for a fact that a straight transphobic man can sleep with a transsexual on repeated occasions and never know. I have seen it with my own eyes. Deny this and you are calling me a liar. I have also personally closely inspected two neo-vaginas and can tell you, unless you are a gynecologist, you would not know the difference. And by closely inspected I mean legs wide open on her back for my personal perusal.

It may be that I'm wrong about this, but I don't think so.  I think the things I mentioned-- the way the smell changes during lubrication, the way the walls of the vagina pulse during orgasm, and so on, cannot be reproduced.  I don't know how many men notice those things, but I'm particularly fascinated by the female body, and I've definitely noticed them.  In fact, if I were unable to stimulate a woman to get those results, I would probably be worried that she found me unattractive.

However, there may be XX women who might not respond the way I expect, either.  I'm perfectly open to the possibility that I'd be less able to tell than I thought.

Well maybe you are one of the few men that would be able to tell the difference. Question is, how would you know? Have you ever slept with a trans-woman? They have pelvic floor muscles as well that can massage the head of a penis. Do you have a multi-pronged penis that can grope around inside? Most men just have a single digit down there that goes in and out of a vagina. And you are assuming that women all function the same way.  There are many women who are anorgasmic you know. I am middle aged now and have never had an orgasm before, whether alone or with someone else. Men generally assume that women have the same sexual responses and will respond immediately to touch, forgetting that they need foreplay. So you can't think that it will be any different for trans-women compared to cisgendered women. It won't be. Because not all women respond the same way.

As for my comments about PC-- I don't agree that all trans people are as you've described: just realizing in due course that due to circumstance, they've ended up with a body that doesn't match their view of themselves, or the gender they were labeled with at birth.  There are plenty of cases where sexual abuse and other factors contribute to an identity crisis, and there are plenty of cases where the psychological stresses aren't only due to external prejudices.  I think pretending this to be so is dangerous.  Different people are different, right?

I am talking about transsexuals, not trans people in general. Transgendered is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals.

At the risk of presuming too much, why did Yonadav transition to female and then back again?  Might it be that there's more to his sense of gender than just aligning external appearances with internal feelings about his identity?

Yonadav is a very rare creature indeed who is unrepresentative of the transsexual community. No one knows what's happened with him, possibly not even him.

[bennyboy]

But talking about them in that way and treating them that way is dehumanising.

Not equating trans women with biological women isn't dehumanizing. It's a biological fact-- different DNA, different equipment. A doctor might, as you've argued, make an extremely good facsimile on the outside-- but there's no womb, no ovaries, no period, and so on. . . and those are all physical features of females of the human species.

Now, if you are talking about gender roles or expression, that's completely different. If I knew you in person, I'd be perfectly happy calling you Ms. Matilda. I'd tell you how lovely you look in your church dress. If you were my secretary, I'd buy you flowers on secretary's day.

But if my not wanting to engage in sexual intercourse because trans women aren't my thing is dehumanizing-- well, I've been dehumanized in that way by plenty of women in my life. I don't think anybody gets to demand this of anyone else.

I wrote a post about this very subject on AD. I don't want to repeat myself so I shall just copy and paste a couple of paragraphs of relevant text here.

If there's one thing that trans people are good for it's to be fodder for other people's idle debates about their very existence. Very basic things that everyone else just takes for granted get debated as if it's some pressing issue when it is not. Like where they can go to the toilet, whether they can have sex without having to reveal their medical history, whether they can get married or adopt, access medical services, where they change their clothes or use the showers, whether they can take part or compete in sport, whether they should be given help from rape crisis centres or women's refuges, or change their name or birth certificate to something that won't lead to them being openly discriminated against, or whether they should be allowed to be put in a prison that won't get them raped on a daily basis. Generally the message is, yes, we'll allow you to exist because we can't actually kill you off, but don't you dare think about actually living because we consider you to be deluded, psychologically ill and pretending to be something that you are not. It is because of this that trans people talk about being erased. Because their very lives and core identities are being negated.

Why would your sexual identity be the core of your humanity? I don't know you very well since it's an internet forum, but I'm pretty confident that however important your gender identity is in defining your life narrative, it's not even 1% of what you are as a human being.

I think you SHOULD be able to marry, adopt, get medical services, get help in women's refuges, change your name and so on. 100%.

Trans-women are different from other women. But you could also make the same argument about cisgendered women who have undergone FGM, or cisgendered women who have been sexually abused as children or any other radically different childhood. Trans-women were denied the upbringing that cisgendered women generally take for granted and this does affect how they have developed as people. How can you feel comfortable hugging other women and being as equally tactile with them for example if you have had a history of being physically beaten up at school and told from a young age that other girls see you as different? Same way some trans-men are not sure what it means when another man punches them affectionately in the arm. But as I said earlier, this is not exclusively a transgendered problem as it applies to any person who has had their life interrupted by traumatic events.

That's right. There are plenty of cisgendered women who don't act according to the social or species norm. And I wouldn't endorse dehumanizing them, either.

All humans are a mixture of nature and nurture. There is how our brains have developed in a way that doesn't change. But also our environment which continues to influence how our brain re-wires itself. This is why counselling doesn't get rid of transsexuality, or body dysmorphia, in the same way counselling does not stop someone being autistic or a sociopath (not saying they are the same). But in the same way, a person's environment can either exacerbate or ameliorate how they have naturally developed. So living as the gender that you feel yourself to be, being seen and thus being treated as that, helps shape the rest of your brain to be consistent with the parts that cannot change.

Recognition of this is why the definition of dysmorphia in DSM has changed, I think-- it's no longer defined in terms of biological origin, but in terms of the cognitive dissonance and psychological distress in individuals. I'm quite sure that you must agree with the changes to DSM, right?

But gender dysmorphia isn't always of the category you are describing: the realization that the physical phenotypes and emotional reality (add social reality) don't match. There are sometimes serious psychological issues around it that can be dependent on abuse or developmental issues. Fully and automatically embracing every idea people have about themselves as a right isn't necessarily doing them favors. Different people are different.

Transsexuals transition to reduce the divergence between their natural development and their nurture. This isn't just physical. This includes repairing the damage from having the wrong upbringing and trying to live the life that is wrong for how you have naturally developed. And you can't do this if everyone is debating whether you should even be living as the person that you really are.

Living as something, and being the thing in all possible regards, aren't identical. I live in Korea. I can, potentially, change my citizenship. I can get legal status as a Korean, and have it printed on my passport. With work, I can closer and closer bring my behaviors and appearance to that of other Koreans. But the fact is that I'm not Korean in the way that other Koreans are, and can't be. I have different genetics and a different appearance. If I am culturally well-adapted, Koreans will embrace me as one of their own to a degree, but there's always that understanding-- full acceptance and total equation aren't the same thing.

I'm perfectly happy to say that through identification and probably a lot of work, you are fully female in terms of your external expression. But you are not identically female to XY females of the human species, and can't be. That doesn't make you lesser, or deserving of mockery or demeaning treatment. You shouldn't be attacked for what you are, ever. But if you insist that a refusal to equate your femininity as fully equivalent in all ways to that of an XY female is dehumanizing, then you're painting yourself in a corner.

Put it like this bennyboy. If you thought that a trans-women were woman then why would it matter to you that they didn't tell you about their medical history? Do you also care about a cisgendered woman's medical history? Say that they are infertile? Or maybe if they suffer from Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and are XY but were assigned female at birth? What about a trans-woman who is XXY because they have Klinefelter syndrome and were therefore assigned male at birth but still have many physical aspects specific to women, such as period pains?

I have to kind of go back in time to answer this question. But yes. . . any prospective romantic partner with any issues at all, medically or psychologically, could have been potentially less attractive than a more typical female person. And it doesn't have to be about the sexual bits, either: an extra toe or nipple, a skin condition, a weird laugh, the shape of someone's nose. . . in any of those cases, some people might not care at all, and some people might find themselves turned off.

I cannot say if a really convincingly surgeried (?) trans woman had been interested in me, if I would have been attracted to her or not. I did meet some trans people, and the adam's apple and the stubble under the makeup, and the big hands and feet, the slightly forced pitched speaking and so on, definitely didn't get my neurons firing in a way to stimulate romantic interest. But the sample size is so small-- who knows? Certainly, I was hedonistic enough that if someone did turn my crank, whatever form they took, I would have been perfectly happy tell the rest of the world to go fuck themselves.

Well maybe you are one of the few men that would be able to tell the difference. Question is, how would you know? Have you ever slept with a trans-woman? They have pelvic floor muscles as well that can massage the head of a penis. Do you have a multi-pronged penis that can grope around inside? Most men just have a single digit down there that goes in and out of a vagina. And you are assuming that women all function the same way.  There are many women who are anorgasmic you know. I am middle aged now and have never had an orgasm before, whether alone or with someone else. Men generally assume that women have the same sexual responses and will respond immediately to touch, forgetting that they need foreplay. So you can't think that it will be any different for trans-women compared to cisgendered women. It won't be. Because not all women respond the same way.

When I was younger and going to raves, taking ecstasy or LSD, I might have met trans people that were very traditionally feminine. Hey, it's even possible that I DID have sex with a trans person-- but I doubt it. Back then, the surgeries and hormone therapies probably weren't as complete as they are now. But my friends and I experimented with a lot of things, sexuality among them, and I can't rule it out.

As for "anorgasmic" women. . . yeah, that would have mattered to me. When I was young, causing an orgasm was much more important to me than having one. It gave me a sense of validation, and it definitely was a precursor to a level of bonding that felt very special to me. In fact, unlike most men, I don't think I COULD have an orgasm unless I caused one first-- I was too insecure, and I always had to engage in oral sex and manual stimulation for a couple of dates before I could get it up and go all the way.

And that makes ME atypical of men of the species, to be sure, and some girls who were too pushy had plenty to say about that-- "Are you fucking GAY?! Fuck me, faggot!" was shrieked at me in distress a couple times-- presumably by women who felt that my own inability to perform was a reflection of their sexual attractiveness. But it also gave me a chance to learn about my romantic partners' turn-ons, and to have some wonderful relationships in college and early adulthood. I spent a lot of time playing the "1-10 game" (How's this? What if I touch you HERE? What if I rub THAT? What if I move my tongue THIS way?). . . definitely the world's most-fun game IMO. Hearing the word "10" moaned repeatedly while a woman nearly cracks my skull with her thighs is about as happy as I can get.

I am talking about transsexuals, not trans people in general. Transgendered is an umbrella term that includes transsexuals.

I can't personally comment on the complexities of transsexuals or other trans people, except to say that I've been made aware of the relationship between sexual abuse, dysphoria, and suicide rates in at least some cases.

Not all self-identifications are healthy. For this reason I wouldn't, for example, endorse a child or teen having irrevocable surgery. I'd recommend talking to the child a LOT, taking him/her to counseling (and I mean self-examination, not trying to "fix" them) to make sure, and then as a parent, I'd say, "When you are of age to legally make that decision, then I will support you and love you no matter what path you take."

At the risk of presuming too much, why did Yonadav transition to female and then back again?  Might it be that there's more to his sense of gender than just aligning external appearances with internal feelings about his identity?

Yonadav is a very rare creature indeed who is unrepresentative of the transsexual community. No one knows what's happened with him, possibly not even him.

He's the .1% of the .1%, eh?

That just makes me more curious. I hope he comes back and is willing to talk about this stuff more.

[Athene]

Yawn...Oh, look. More denial, gaslighting, and projection.

I have no doubt that this sort of bullshit is quite effective in keeping your family off balance and subdued, but do understand that it's boring to me.
It's just further confirmation of what a horridly manipulative person you are.

I'm gonna go way out on a limb and say that you're the one projecting.  Tell us about your well-balanced, rich and rewarding love life, Thena.  Tell us about your deep satisfaction with your family situation, and about how your sunny disposition keeps everyone around you smiling.  Tell us about the psychological good health and personal balance which serves as a guiding light for your behavior-- because based on the way you talk, I'd say that your problems are at least as severe as mine.  If you really think that dumping on me, or insulting my relationship with my family, will improve your view of yourself, then I have to say that is probably not going to happen.

I'm  a pretty mellow person, actually. 
However, I don't believe in suffering bullies' bullshit; Including that of slick, "higher-thinking", weasley types who attempt exercise control over others via emotional blackmail and various other sorts of psychological manipulation.

Being honest about real feelings and events in life, and trying to understand how people arrive at that place, is a valuable pursuit, and with all due respect to whatever it is that tilts you so much about this discussion, I will continue discussing it until I've learned what I can.  But it's pretty clear that "the lady doth protest too much."  Here we are, in a thread entitled "I don't care," and you are showing how much you don't care by typing dozens or hundreds of lines about what a horrible person you think I am, and how unfortunate my poor family are to have to deal with me.

I didn't author this thread or come up with the title though, so...

Why don't you open up a bit?  Instead of hiding behind your toxicity, why don't you share something a little more meaningful?  No matter what else anyone thinks about me, I can guarantee that anyone who is troubled and looking for an ear to listen will find an attentive one in mine.

I have no issue opening up to people I surmise to be relatively decent and/or trust, but you don't happen to fall into either of those categories. It would be unwise to share anything profoundly personal with someone as self-serving and manipulative as you appear to be.

And consider what this thread is about and my position-- that we should restrain ourselves from using dehumanizing or excessively hostile language.  Do you really despise me so much that you can look at that kind of sentiment, and see only an attempt to manipulate?  How about this-- I give open reign for you to shit all over me.  Make a thread about me-- list all the horrible things I've done, and all the many ways in which I should rightly suffer for them.  Punish me for my attempt to manipulate, content in the knowledge that I deserve whatever you dish out or more.

No. An attention-whore such as yourself would enjoy that entirely too much. 

I don't like you, but I don't actually despise you either. I simply refuse to cater to your demands for "special immunity" from being called out on your bullshit.
The case you've made doesn't warrant it in the least, IMO.

But beyond that, maybe find a little room in your heart not to dehumanize anyone else, or support the dehumanization of others.

Again, become the change you wish to see. Conduct yourself with decency and perhaps you'd find people wouldn't be so inclined to call you out on your bullshit "dehumanize" you...Lol.

[Aliza]

He's the .1% of the .1%, eh?

That just makes me more curious.  I hope he comes back and is willing to talk about this stuff more.

I get that you're curious, but here's a nickel's worth of advice for free: stay away from that guy. If you choose to ignore that advice, have thick skin, a lot of patience, and try to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

[bennyboy]

I'm  a pretty mellow person, actually. 
However, I don't believe in suffering bullies' bullshit; Including that of slick, "higher-thinking", weasley types who attempt exercise control over others via emotional blackmail and various other sorts of psychological manipulation.

You think I'm slick? I'm "higher-thinking? Am I such a charmer, really? Awwwwww. . . that's sweet. Let's hug it out! Why don't we talk it out over dinner and drinks? <3

I don't like you, but I don't actually despise you either. I simply refuse to cater to your demands for "special immunity" from being called out on your bullshit.
The case you've made doesn't warrant it in the least, IMO.

You really do need to learn what "quotes" are "for."

Again, become the change you wish to see. Conduct yourself with decency and perhaps you'd find people wouldn't be so inclined to call you out on your bullshit "dehumanize" you...Lol.

Really? Have I conducted myself poorly? Link or quote it. I think you'd be hard challenged to find anyone who's resorted to less name-calling or deliberate toxicity than I have. You, on the other hand, have in my opinion used extremely aggressive and demeaning language, and unapologetically so. What color pot are you?

---

He's the .1% of the .1%, eh?

That just makes me more curious.  I hope he comes back and is willing to talk about this stuff more.

I get that you're curious, but here's a nickel's worth of advice for free: stay away from that guy. If you choose to ignore that advice, have thick skin, a lot of patience, and try to take everything he says with a grain of salt.

I want to know where ALL people are coming from.  Toxicity is usually a cover for some kind of fear or weakness or resentment, I think.  But Yonadav and I get along fine-- I feel I might really have the chance to learn something interesting if he wants to talk about it. It's starting to look like he's finally had enough of this environment, though.

[Belacqua]

Yonadav and I get along fine-- I feel I might really have the chance to learn something interesting if he wants to talk about it.

Me, too. 

I think he was the target of name-callers and bullies, because he is the type that such people normally choose as a target. Bullies always find ways to justify their attacks. He was different enough from the herd to single out, since bullies always choose someone without a lot of social support. And he reacted to their attacks -- we all know that targets who don't react are boring for the attackers. 

If he really was saying bad things about social relations, and he really was hopeless, then non-bullies just walk away.

[Shell B]

Yonadav and I get along fine-- I feel I might really have the chance to learn something interesting if he wants to talk about it.

Me, too. 

I think he was the target of name-callers and bullies, because he is the type that such people normally choose as a target. Bullies always find ways to justify their attacks. He was different enough from the herd to single out, since bullies always choose someone without a lot of social support. And he reacted to their attacks -- we all know that targets who don't react are boring for the attackers. 

If he really was saying bad things about social relations, and he really was hopeless, then non-bullies just walk away.

Oh, piss off with that nonsense. Pretending he didn't "start it" just so you can make it sound like a bunch of bullies pushed him away. The man repeatedly and relentlessly insulted women. I'm supposed to just take that or get labeled a bully? How did you even justify that post in your mind? Fucking bizarre.

[Belacqua]

Me, too. 

I think he was the target of name-callers and bullies, because he is the type that such people normally choose as a target. Bullies always find ways to justify their attacks. He was different enough from the herd to single out, since bullies always choose someone without a lot of social support. And he reacted to their attacks -- we all know that targets who don't react are boring for the attackers. 

If he really was saying bad things about social relations, and he really was hopeless, then non-bullies just walk away.

Oh, piss off with that nonsense. Pretending he didn't "start it" just so you can make it sound like a bunch of bullies pushed him away. The man repeatedly and relentlessly insulted women. I'm supposed to just take that or get labeled a bully? How did you even justify that post in your mind? Fucking bizarre.

You and I have different moral codes.

I am a Bill and Ted Fundamentalist. I think that we should always be excellent to one another.

You are a Bill and Ted Reform Movement. You think that we should be excellent to one another provided that the other person expresses ideas on the Internet that we agree with. 

Our faiths are irreconcilable.

[Silver]