Ours is a society that rewards sociopathy

[Fireball]

Bim-bam! Two sides of a coin. I'd be interested in watching this discussion.

[Belacqua]

It is probably not an exaggeration to say Japanese culture bought its internal aversion to routine confrontation with the price of an inflexible conformity.

It is definitely an exaggeration to say that. I've lived in Japan since 1988, and I know a lot of odd and eccentric people who are doing fine.

What is more, the measure of character of a society is not only how it treats its in group, but how it treats out groups.   In this Japanese culture has had little in its history to brag about even compared to many examples of distastefully xenophobic societies around the world.

That's true. Japan's attempt to subjugate nearby countries and brutally exploit their resources began too late, after Belgium and all the others had already passed through this phase. The US was already inventing new ways to steal resources and impoverish large areas of the globe without direct colonization.

[The Grand Nudger]

You’re incapable of accepting the validity of criticism about any of your favorite things to compare and contrast with the mean dumb atheists of af, huh.

I don’t see courtesy in practiced and genteel duplicity, only contempt. Such as your contempt for the teacher you mentioned. Or, really, the same contempt employed the same way here to precisely the same end. Keeping people in their place.

[Anomalocaris]

It is probably not an exaggeration to say Japanese culture bought its internal aversion to routine confrontation with the price of an inflexible conformity.

It is definitely an exaggeration to say that. I've lived in Japan since 1988, and I know a lot of odd and eccentric people who are doing fine.

What is more, the measure of character of a society is not only how it treats its in group, but how it treats out groups.   In this Japanese culture has had little in its history to brag about even compared to many examples of distastefully xenophobic societies around the world.

That's true. Japan's attempt to subjugate nearby countries and brutally exploit their resources began too late, after Belgium and all the others had already passed through this phase. The US was already inventing new ways to steal resources and impoverish large areas of the globe without direct colonization.

Right.  Conformity has enabled the Japanese society to demonstrated, even on its fringes, impressive and largely unparalleledly successful resistance to inroads by disgusting opportunistic unscrupulous soul stealers of Christ.    So I guess the Japanese society has more than redeemed its shortcomings.

[Macoleco]

So, what was his subject? Was he a war crimes apologist or was he merely incompetent?

Nothing to do with war crimes. He was supposedly doing research on an obscure Irish painter. 

He was just incompetent about teaching, and puffed himself up by making his students look bad. He would tell them to do something, not guide them in doing it, and then take pleasure in telling them they'd failed. I suppose in his mind this was some kind of tough love or something. 

I see it as a failure of character -- lack of empathy, misplaced confidence in his own wisdom.

Did you just describe every teacher of my university?

Anyway, it is unexpected how this turned into a discussion about Japan’s culture.

[paulpablo]

It would be good to know just how much you're fighting back and in what way, and what you're up against.

Are you in some sort of ghetto and you're thinking of buying a gun to fight back against the local drug dealers like an 80s movie, or is your boss trying to get you to work through your lunch break which you should be legally entitled to?

I'm in England and minor conflict is common, in traffic, in the work place.  I would probably run into a lot more of it if I drank and went out to places like pubs and clubs.  Being around it all the time can make you wiser about dealing with it in future. 

In terms of sociopathy being rewarded I agree with the people saying it varies from culture to culture, but I'd also say it varies from group to group within cultures. I don't live in a crime free paradise but in general people who have a total disregard for other people aren't really treated greatly.  In general they develop a bad reputation and people don't want to deal with them.  Local to me there are entire areas with bad reputations.

[Belacqua]

Did you just describe every teacher of my university?

Uh oh. I'm sorry to hear you've got the same issues. 

There's no doubt that there are terrible teachers everywhere. I can't compare Japan's schools with where you are, or a hundred other countries. 

Japan's universities still have a reputation for being undemanding. The entrance examination is hell but once you're in it's easy, and nobody demands much. Naturally this varies from school to school and department to department -- where I used to be there was a well-known guy running the physics lab, who brought in extra-smart kids, and that was suppose to be high-powered. 

If you want a student visa, though, it can be a good deal. Not crazy demanding, help from the university in getting set up with housing, etc., intensive language practice, enough free time to plan your next visa -- employment, spousal, whatever you can manage. 

(This is in serious contrast to Beijing University. The students there are the most awake and interested I've ever seen -- undergrads asking high-level questions in their second or third language. I left there thinking we should just let China take over the world.) 

If you move here there will be subtle discrimination. People assume you don't know the customs so they might not want you in a traditional restaurant or something. One guy, 25 years ago, refused to rent a big house to me because he thought I'd "be more comfortable with people of my own kind." Don't even think about the red light districts unless you have an experienced guide -- the doormen I've walked past have a seriously cold ground-gaze when they see a foreigner.

There's no random abuse, though, as when I go back to my hometown in the US midwest and people I don't know make sarcastic comments about the clothes I'm wearing, or the fact that I'm walking down the sidewalk instead of driving for two blocks. The conformity enforcement in Kansas is shocking, whereas in Japan they'll just ignore you silently.

[EgoDeath]

I have to admit that I tend to view life in quite a Machiavellian sense. I've strategized, put plays on people, manipulated people to get what I want, thwarted people's plans, so on and so forth. I used to live a fast life. Die young, leave a good looking corpse and all that. All in all, it doesn't really make you happy. At least, it didn't make me happy. I found myself chasing money, and not even some exorbitant amount, only to put a hell of a lot of energy into constantly analyzing, playing and working people.

In the end, it isn't worth it. Not to me.

Now, I still use these skills to read people; I'm certainly not immune to being duped or tricked, but I'd like to think I generally have a pretty good grasp of who someone is when I meet them. I've prevented a few bad things from happening to myself and people I know by keeping a close eye on different things. Though, there's still a lot to learn, and I'm always reading.

All that being said, most humans are not, in my opinion, doing what you're talking about in any sort of conscious sense. They're not sociopaths and I think that word is thrown around way too liberally. Some people might like to think of themselves as cunning tricksters; they're usually nothing of the sort.

Most people are too fucking stupid to turn off the television and pick up a goddamned book, let alone know how to truly deceive someone in pursuit of any sort of significant materialistic gain. Basically, I don't think most people do it on purpose; I think most people are just dumb and don't think of anyone beside themselves.

The ones who aren't dumb and only think of themselves are still generally pretty helpless. A lot of people try to be good, or do things to tell themselves that they're good. Maybe they donate to a charity or volunteer at a soup kitchen a couple times a month. And that's cool. There's nothing wrong with that. But still, these people probably mostly don't think about others because they're too busy concocting some narrative of who they are in their own minds.

Then, there are the truly down-to-Earth, decent people. I think, no matter who you are, you meet very few of these people in your life. When you find them, you should make a decent effort to keep them in your life and convince them that you're a good person to. Not to trick them, but honestly, just be a good person to them. They'll return the favor, because they're good. What's the old saying? You're lucky if you have one truly good friend in your entire life... or something like that? I suppose this is mostly true.

What I'm getting at, is I don't think that what you're describing can be escaped by moving thousands of miles across the planet. You'll find that, in general, humans are mostly dumb fucks with precisely zero interesting things to say. Maybe this is a cynical way to look at the world. I've been told as much. But that's my honest opinion. I want to stab my ears with pencils when most people are talking; they talk only about themselves usually, or about things so fucking mundane that it wouldn't be reported in a tabloid newspaper ran by high schoolers.

As you can tell, I'm not a huge fan of people. Seems like maybe you aren't either. But that's beside the point. You put yourself out there, you get some hobbies, do some new things, try some new shit, maybe you'll find someone you can connect with on a deep level. At the very least, you'll make a few friends you can tolerate.

It sounds like maybe you're just lonely. You describe an increasing lack of guilt... but maybe this is just an increasing LACK of connection with others. You need a good friend in your life. If you have one, call them up. Maybe they need to hear from you anyway.

Well, whatever you're going through, good luck to you.

[Acrobat]

The macho man tough guy approach to dealing with difference of opinion is far more in evidence in the US than in Japan. In discussing metaphysics and other ideas, a person in Japan almost never has to put up with the Clint Eastwood approach that is common elsewhere (e.g. this forum).

Do you think that comes with a downside though? I was reading something awhile back how they were trying to reintroduce Samurai values back into the culture, in some sense to encourage the sort of masculinity of the Eastwood type, as a way to encourage the idea of marriage, fatherhood in young men, the sort of strong male figure that desires these things, etc?

I’m sure their attempt to do so would fail, but I don’t think their reasoning is flawed.

[Belacqua]

The macho man tough guy approach to dealing with difference of opinion is far more in evidence in the US than in Japan. In discussing metaphysics and other ideas, a person in Japan almost never has to put up with the Clint Eastwood approach that is common elsewhere (e.g. this forum).

Do you think that comes with a downside though? I was reading something awhile back how they were trying to reintroduce Samurai values back into the culture, in some sense to encourage the sort of masculinity of the Eastwood type, as a way to encourage the idea of marriage, fatherhood in young men, the sort of strong male figure that desires these things,  etc?

I’m sure their attempt to do so would fail,   but I don’t think their reasoning is flawed.

It makes sense. The big topic in the trendy press is the soushokukei men -- so called "grass-feeders" (as opposed to red meat-eaters) who are uninterested in sex and mature commitment with anyone other than an anime character pillow. Even the current TV "idols" look very androgynous to me. More than once I've asked my wife "who's that girl" about a TV person and heard "that's a boy." 

So maybe it's not tough-guy fighty-fight as much as just -- men who want women, who want to succeed in a career, who know how to make babies, etc. 

But your question is a good one... Could this more traditional masculine view be revived without the tendency to abuse one's spouse and tell her "make me a sandwich, bitch." 

Here as always I blame economics. Little by little they've been allowing women into the workplace (good) but slowly switching to a kind of mild austerity program where a family needs two incomes to live as well as one used to (bad). And the switch from big families with free-range kids swimming in the rivers to single-child families who raise their children like hothouse flowers doesn't help. This is a thing in America too, isn't it? Little kids have all their free time scheduled, I hear, whereas I used to just run wild all summer.