Early Islam and healthcare

[WinterHold]

It doesn't seem that way when you consider the amounts of Europeans standing with Right wing's propaganda. The Right is winning and it uses xenophobia and denying Muslims of their real history as a favorite asset to win.

Muslim history is being dumped underground, and ignoring the existence of Muslims is widespread, it even reached the degree of demonizing Muslim civilizations like the Ottoman civilization without any shame; forgetting real grand demons like HItler, Vlad and the Crusaders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  You're a victim.  Blah bitty blah bitty blah.  Play another tune.

Boru

I'm not a victim, but the idea of replacing the map of the Middle East with another with "lesser borders" + free healthcare + free education + free governmental salaries for the poor and the sick, will carry a permanent solution for the overheating of the region.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  You're a victim.  Blah bitty blah bitty blah.  Play another tune.

Boru

I'm not a victim, but the idea of replacing the map of the Middle East with another with "lesser borders" + free healthcare + free education + free governmental salaries for the poor and the sick, will carry a permanent solution for the overheating of the region.

If you're not a victim, you're doing a damned fine impression of one.

Every single religious or ethnic group in the world has been on the bad end of racism or genocide or falsified/glossed over history.  Your position seems to be that the Muslims are the more put-upon group in history.  Have they gotten a bad deal of late?  Yes and no mistake.  But you really need to stop acting as if the Muslims are being singled out.

Boru

[WinterHold]

It doesn't seem that way when you consider the amounts of Europeans standing with Right wing's propaganda.

14-16% of Germans would vote for the right wing xenophbic party if today were elections. Thats 1/6.

What about the Pegida protest against Muslims in Germany and Europe in general??
It exceeds the 16% from what I saw in the news.

The Right is winning and it uses xenophobia and denying Muslims of their real history as a favorite asset to win.

They have risen, more or less, depending on what area/country you are looking at. Winning? Not...yet.
Does it use xenophhobia? Sure, but its directed against everybody, not only muslims.
Denying their history? Where? When? Examples please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

Pegida believes that Germany is being increasingly Islamicized[10] and defines itself in opposition to Islamic extremism.

I don't see anybody else targeted but Muslims in the official agenda of the far right.

Muslim history is being dumped underground,

Where? When? Examples?
On german TV there is routinely history docus about islam and its achievements during the medieval age (broaadly speaking in terms of time). Nothing hidden, dumped, twisted.

Muslim advent to the world literally shook the whole globe, from Africa to Europe.
That's not even my opinion; but the opinion of historians that some of them were even atheist.

Until this day Muslims are a billion and increasing. Muslims hold the richest regions in their hands, unlike the Mongols they kept science and rewarded scientists, they even utilized the geniuses of Europe to manufacture the strongest cannons of their time, but why don't I read about this unless I dig so deep in Wikipedia, while way smaller cultures are magnified.

Give me the name of the program and the channel so I confess that I was wrong.

and ignoring the existence of Muslims is widespread,

...and i thought part of the problem of xenophobia is to think that too many *pick your favourite foreigners* are around. I thought the knowledge of the dominance, based on brutal expansionism of the Ottoman empire is what makes so many people afraid.
If foreigners could be conveniently ignored, as you said, then xenophobia wouldnt be a thing.

You respect Sun Tzu; right?

His first rule in the book "Art of War" was:

Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt. When strong, avoid them. If of high morale, depress them. Seem humble to fill them with conceit.

A fine tactical leader would depress me if my morale is up. One way to depress a person is to cut them from their past, making them feel lost.

The Ottomans were incomparable to the Mongols or the Crusaders. A simple comparison of crime and brutality makes one miss the Ottoman songs.. 

it even reached the degree of demonizing Muslim civilizations like the Ottoman civilization without any shame;

Where? When? Examples please.
Didnt you just say a minute ago muslim history got "dumped underground", that "ignoring the existence of muslims"?

"If of high morale, depress them."

Dumping the history of Muslims underground is one way to kill any high morale that might spark in their heads. Islam is such a headache to imperialists.

forgetting real grand demons like HItler, Vlad and the Crusaders.

"Real demons", mhm? "Look, over THERE", mhm? Vlad Tepes et al notwithstanding, the Ottoman Empire had some pretty repugnant customs, dont you agree? Devshirme, anybody? Ottoman corsairs raiding christian/european coastlines for loot and slaves? What about the great tradition of *eliminating* all your brothers in order to become sultan. Arent there quite a few small coffins in ottoman tombs in and around Topkapi? Not very civilized to kill small boys, dont you think?
Does whatever Vlad Tepes did, make any of this better?

The Church did worse deeds; that even books shake in fear and disgust when they read them.
This Vlad impaled people in the ass. Crusaders ate the flesh of Muslim babies. Mongols and Christians had mutual interest in destroying Islam and Muslims out of the way.

If it wasn't for Ottoman sea raids, European pirates would've had an open playground in the Middle East. The corruption of European pirates filled America and the Caribbean. It's hard to call pirate ships "innocent".

What about the huge amounts of European Christians who lived with the Ottomans, and were even given right to rule Turkey and the Islamic world? Ottomans were very tolerant to Europeans. Bosnia didn't advocate Islam and practice out of the blue.

Lets have a look at Vlad Tepes:
He became to hate the muslims because....oh hey, wait, because the Sultan requested to have him and his brothers as a hostage*. Because the Sultan requested to have the Devshirme done in Wallachia every year? Because the Ottomans intended to subdue Wallachia?
He was Voivod of Wallachia for a mere six years. For how long again did the Ottomans the Ottoman things i pointed out above? 500 years, give or take? Where did Vlad do this thing? In and near Wallachia. The Ottomans? Can we agree on "roughly, the complete mediterranean and the arab peninsula as well, for a loooong time"? Would that be accurrate enough for you?
Did Vlad invade half of the known world in order to force his religion and/or reign on everybody, like the Ottomans, or was he rather what we would call a "freedom fighter", fighting for the freedom of his country/people from Ottoman yoke?

Why Vlad at all, and not Stephen The Great who gave the Ottmans a way better run for the money for much longer time and dealt them the biggest military defeat ever? Why not Prince Eugene? Didnt we already discuss this issue?

Im not even going to adress Crusaders or Hitler, because, frankly, i have better things to do.


*would you rate Arminius as such a "real demon" as well? Would you rate Osman I such a demon for rebelling against the reign of Rum Seldjuks or the Ilkhanate?

Do you want to convince me that this very very very famous verse from the Quran was unknown to the Ottomans or the impeller ?

Sura 2, the Quran:
Sahih International

(256) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

This verse is not just famous; it's in the second Sura. Do you want to convince me that Millions of Millions of Turks, Arabs and Europeans, Christian and Muslim, were ignorant of the existence of this verse??

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The Muslim Umma -nation- gave healthcare as early as 805 and supported the families of the sick and the crazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of..._hospitals

Muslims knew hospitals from a very early time. This carries a shocking answer to the false lies that says early Muslims were savages; matter in fact the world they built is very close to our modern day world.

By borrowing the luxeries that existed for the royals in Rome and Persia; Muslims made them available for everybody.
They even gave salaries to the families of the sick.

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Compare between a crusader living in the darkness and a Muslim living in Baghdad in 700 ad.
No wonder the crusaders ate the flesh of Muslims in the crusades.

Islam did have a golden era. But it ended a looooonnnnnng time ago. They started as savages got a bit cultured then became savages again.

The thing that made them fall? They started to really believe in it.

They didn't turn from a nomadic society until Islam came with Mohammed peace be upon him. In other words; if not for the rules the Quran stated, Arabs would've never crossed two inches into the global scale.

They turned savages again when they abandoned Islam in favor of Sunnism, Shiite-ism, and the twisted form of modern laws that they used to gain more power, but ended in them becoming a third world.

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The Muslim Umma -nation- gave healthcare as early as 805 and supported the families of the sick and the crazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of..._hospitals

Muslims knew hospitals from a very early time. This carries a shocking answer to the false lies that says early Muslims were savages; matter in fact the world they built is very close to our modern day world.

By borrowing the luxeries that existed for the royals in Rome and Persia; Muslims made them available for everybody.
They even gave salaries to the families of the sick.

---

Compare between a crusader living in the darkness and a Muslim living in Baghdad in 700 ad.
No wonder the crusaders ate the flesh of Muslims in the crusades.

Blaming others for what muslims have become is your deal. I blame my parents for not being ugly and poor, then

Of course Muslims are not innocent. The power Arab and Muslim criminals got was caused mainly by the Islamic populations agreeing to sell their culture for a very small price.

Just like your case, it's a certain age you reach when you hold full control over yourself to fight the poison in your childhood.

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It’s well known that Islam kept alive the sciences taught by the Greeks and Romans and built upon them while Europe sank into the Dark Ages of ignorance and fanaticism.

Very few dispute these facts or that the golden age of Islam happened.

I don’t think anyone has any doubts that the Crusade had a profound effect on the psyche of the people of the region.

Remember, though, that Islam was also spread by the sword across North Africa and into Europe.

Both sides committed huge atrocities against one another, themselves, and the innocent around them.

Eastern Romans and Persians treated Arabs like crap, torturing and killing to enforce their power on the local natives in Arabia and Africa; Muslim Arabs always got free help from inside Roman and Persian cities: people despised Romans and Persians.

Persians for example had a complex called expansion and torture; they even attacked Greece.
Romans on the other hand met their destruction for their brutality in the West, but the east held its ground only because the eastern empire were Christian which gave it some compassion over Persia.

[Abaddon_ire]

The Muslim Umma -nation- gave healthcare and supported the families of the sick and the crazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of..._hospitals

Muslims knew hospitals from a very early time. This carries a shocking answer to the false lies that says early Muslims were savages; matter in fact the world they built is very close to our modern day world.

By borrowing the luxeries that existed for the royals in Rome and Persia; Muslims made them available for everybody.
They even gave salaries to the families of the sick.

---

Compare between a crusader living in the darkness and a Muslim living in Baghdad in 700 ad.
No wonder the crusaders ate the flesh of Muslims in the crusades.

While the Muslim world didn't have the first hospitals, they certainly had the best ones.  This is pretty common knowledge.

Not sure what the quality of Muslim hospitals had to do with crusaders eating Muslims, though.

Boru

He refers to some seiges where the crusaders had little resort but to resort to cannabilism. While this did happen, a myth has spawned from the unfortunate event that claims christians eat muslims as a matter of course. This is, of course false. The christians would have eaten anything they could lay hands upon. The Siege of Maa'rat, for example.

[Deesse23]

14-16% of Germans would vote for the right wing xenophbic party if today were elections. Thats 1/6.

What about the Pegida protest against Muslims in Germany and Europe in general??
It exceeds the 16% from what I saw in the news.

What news reports more than 16% of Germans voting xenophobes? Right, none. Learn to inform yourself better.
At the moment Pegida is not a thing anymore. The latest Pedida demo in Dresden had 700 participants. You also forgot to mention that lots of leaders got arrested and sentenced. Stop reinforing beliefs you alread hold and be more critical.

Pegida believes that Germany is being increasingly Islamicized[10] and defines itself in opposition to Islamic extremism.

I don't see anybody else targeted but Muslims in the official agenda of the far right.

Then you need to look better. While Pegida indeed focuses on perceived islamisation, its a xenophobic movement in general and wants to limit asylum and immigration in general.

However i dont see that any of this supports your original claim that Pegida is "denying Muslims of their real history". If anything Pegidas fear of Islam acknowledges the succes of this religion and its way to spread in the past. Its the very base of those peoples fears.

Muslim advent to the world literally shook the whole globe, from Africa to Europe.
That's not even my opinion; but the opinion of historians that some of them were even atheist.

Again, nobody disputes this. So whom are you even arguing against. Atheism, by the way, is totally irrelevant to this.
Stop your victim complex. Its really annoying.

Until this day Muslims are a billion and increasing. Muslims hold the richest regions in their hands, unlike the Mongols they kept science and rewarded scientists,

Oh, the Mongols. Why suddenly the mongols? They were just as clever as early muslims, and just as crafty. They kept chinese siege technology and used it against their foes. Ask the people of Badgad.

they even utilized the geniuses of Europe to manufacture the strongest cannons of their time, but why don't I read about this unless I dig so deep in Wikipedia, while way smaller cultures are magnified.

So your argument is "i cant find it on the first page of Wikipedia, thus its all hidden on purpose"? The fact that i know better about the history of Islam than you do (and i am not alone) should tell you something.....about history education in Germany, and about your own.

Give me the name of the program and the channel so I confess that I was wrong.

Why would i give you names of german docus you wont understand a single word anyway? To have more epic rants full of evidence of how misinformed you are? Certainly not.
But try to look for ARTE for example, a franco-german channel. ZDFinfo and Phoenix also are a good start.

The Ottomans were incomparable to the Mongols or the Crusaders. A simple comparison of crime and brutality makes one miss the Ottoman songs.. 

Nope, they were just like any other dynasty. You lack of commentary about their despicable traditions is noted though.

Dumping the history of Muslims underground is one way to kill any high morale that might spark in their heads. Islam is such a headache to imperialists.

Your victim complex and ignorance is showing again. Noone is "dumping the history of Muslims". You endlessly repeating a debunked claim does not make it true. Stop that silly mantra of yours.

The Church did worse deeds; that even books shake in fear and disgust when they read them.
This Vlad impaled people in the ass. Crusaders ate the flesh of Muslim babies. Mongols and Christians had mutual interest in destroying Islam and Muslims out of the way.

Ooooooooh, poor Islam, poor Ottomans. Want a tissue?
Reality is: They all were the same more or less.
ate the flesh of babies.....gimme a break.
You ignoring how Islam spread to where it was back then when the Mongols and Crusaders attacked is duly noted as well. You basically ignoring my whole post about how long Vlad Tepes ruled, and how long Ottomans did what they did (including slavery) is duly noted as well. By now your dishoesty is pretty obvious. You arent here to have a civil discourse, you are here to hysterically throw a temper tantrum about how Islam is treated soooooo badly by everyone.

If it wasn't for Ottoman sea raids, European pirates would've had an open playground in the Middle East. The corruption of European pirates filled America and the Caribbean. It's hard to call pirate ships "innocent".

Ahhh, so Muslim pirates only were there because of european pirates. How convenient an arument. Too bad its completely wrong.
European pirates in the middle east? Stop doing drugs, dude.
And what the fuck had european pirates in the caribbean to do with muslim pirates in the mediterranean? Right: ab-so-fucking-lutely-nothing.
When did anyone call (european) pirates "innocent"? Your continuous strawmen are really annoying. FOR FUCKS SAKE, READ WHAT I WRITE, AT LEAST ONCE.

It was the conquests of the Ottoman navy in the 16th century that triggered the holy league to act and ended with Lepanto. And that was at least 100y before the "golden age" of piracy in the caribbean.

Get your fucking history straight, man. Your view of history is totally fucked up. One doesnt even know where to start when correcting your glaring errors.

What about the huge amounts of European Christians who lived with the Ottomans, and were even given right to rule Turkey and the Islamic world? Ottomans were very tolerant to Europeans. Bosnia didn't advocate Islam and practice out of the blue.

All hail and praise the Ottomans! They were so tolerant that they invaded Europe by 1453 and didnt stop until the second siege of Vienna. But hey, Vlad Tepes, he was such a meanie!

Do you want to convince me that this very very very famous verse from the Quran was unknown to the Ottomans or the impeller ?

Another strawman of yours?

Sura 2, the Quran:
Sahih International

(256) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

This verse is not just famous; it's in the second Sura. Do you want to convince me that Millions of Millions of Turks, Arabs and Europeans, Christian and Muslim, were ignorant of the existence of this verse??

You keep strawmanning me, dude. Stop it.
Facts are: Islam was spread with the sword. Anyone knowing your sura while not respecting it is totally irrelevant (like so many of the irrelevancies you keep to bring up).

Eastern Romans and Persians treated Arabs like crap,

STOP YOUR FUCKING VICTIM COMPLEX
Rome treated every barbarian tribe equal: conquer them and colonise.

By the way, i noted a certian scheme in interacting with you:
You start with wild claims. They get debunked and your follow up post always is full of derailing, strawmen and new, even more silly claims and stupid anecdotes. Its nearly impossible to have a civilised discourse with you because of this. You cant hold a coherent thought across more than two posts and your arguments and thoughts constantly are all over the place.
You clearly arent looking for a productive back and forth, but only a chance to climb on your proverbial soap box to tell everybody what you want to tell. Bidirectional conversation is nearly  impossible with you.

[WinterHold]

While the Muslim world didn't have the first hospitals, they certainly had the best ones.  This is pretty common knowledge.

Not sure what the quality of Muslim hospitals had to do with crusaders eating Muslims, though.

Boru

He refers to some seiges where the crusaders had little resort but to resort to cannabilism. While this did happen, a myth has spawned from the unfortunate event that claims christians eat muslims as a matter of course. This is, of course false. The christians would have eaten anything they could lay hands upon. The Siege of Maa'rat, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma%27arra

A chronicler, Radulph of Caen in his contemporaneous account, Gesta Tancredi wrote, "Some people said that, constrained by the lack of food, they boiled pagan adults in cooking-pots, impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled." These events were also chronicled by Fulcher of Chartres, who wrote:

I shudder to tell that many of our people, harassed by the madness of excessive hunger, cut pieces from the buttocks of the Saracens already dead there, which they cooked, but when it was not yet roasted enough by the fire, they devoured it with savage mouth.[1]

The events described by Radulph of Caen have been disputed. The famine and cannibalism are recognised as described by Fulcher of Chartres, but the torture and the killing of Muslim captives for cannibalism by Radulph of Caen are very unlikely since no Arab or Muslim records of the events exist. Had they occurred, they would have probably been recorded. That has been noted by BBC Timewatch series, the episode The Crusades: A Timewatch Guide, which included experts Dr Thomas Asbridge and Muslim Arabic historian Fozia Bora, who state that Radulph of Caen's description does not appear in any contemporary Muslim chronicle.[2][3][4]

Another source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

The crusaders became so deprived at times they are thought to have resorted to cannibalism.[90]

another source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_in...annibalism

• Crusaders were reported to have practiced cannibalism during the Siege of Ma'arra.[3]

  
  
  

another source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cannibalism

Reports of cannibalism were recorded during the First Crusade, as Crusaders were alleged to have fed on the bodies of their dead opponents following the Siege of Ma'arra.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I'm not disputing that crusaders ate Muslims, I was just wondering what it had to do with the high quality of Islamic hospitals.

Boru

[WinterHold]

I'm not disputing that crusaders ate Muslims, I was just wondering what it had to do with the high quality of Islamic hospitals.

Boru

I stated the relation in the OP:

AtlasS said:
Compare between a crusader living in the darkness and a Muslim living in Baghdad in 700 ad.

No wonder the crusaders ate the flesh of Muslims in the crusades.

Poverty is what Crusaders fought to escape. Europe was a muddy, wet and dark continent that they suffered in for decades. Of course you are familiar with what Pope Urban said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/books...riors.html

"'A grave report has come from the lands around Jerusalem...that a race absolutely alien to God...has invaded the land of the Christians....They have either razed the churches of God to the ground or enslaved them to their own rites....They cut open the navels of those whom they choose to torment...drag them around and flog them before killing them as they lie on the ground with all their entrails out....What can I say of the appalling violation of women? On whom does the task lie of avenging this, if not on you?...Take the road to the Holy Sepulchre, rescue that land and rule over it yourselves, for that land, as scripture says, floweth with milk and honey....Take this road for the remission of your sins, assured of the unfading glory of the kingdom of heaven.' When Pope Urban had said these things...everyone shouted in unison: 'Deus vult! Deus vult!,' 'God wills it! God wills it!' "

The racist, xenophobic dog gathered the campaign to loot the lands of Muslims.
The crusaders came for rivers of milk and honey, the savages ate Muslims and even looted their own allies at Constantinople. Ain't a history to be proud of, if I was a Christian.

Now; I really understand where the legends of zombies eating the flesh of other humans came from.

[WinterHold]

So; Crusaders came to destroy and loot, they were a barbarian horde disguised in metal armors, they came to Muslim lands to kill and rape. Indeed Muslim hospitals were heathen luxuries in their barbarian eyes, they weren't Rome and their savage hordes were not the legions of Cesar.

It's not racism against Europeans since I am admitting the noble role of Rome and Greece in building civilization, but crusaders were a savage rabble that used Christianity to loot and escape poverty.

Their relationship to Islamic healthcare was so obvious: Crusaders and Mongols burned down Muslim civilization. Today, Muslims are under the control of the sons of Crusaders who evolved through the Illumination era to turn against Christianity and advocate secular laws, local criminals are always chosen intentionally to guard and deliver the interests of their employers.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

That's not really WHY the Crusaders come to the Holy Land, but there's no question that atrocities occurred on both sides once they arrived.  Don't confuse motivation with opportunism.

Boru