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The shroud of turin
#31
RE: The shroud of turin
Looked the argument up about the stitch on the Masada fragment and the Shroud.

Here's a counterpoint written by historian Charles Freeman




TL;DR: That Masada fragment has less in common with the Shroud of Turin than it might appear at first glance.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

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#32
RE: The shroud of turin
(January 18, 2020 at 8:43 pm)Otangelo Wrote:
(January 17, 2020 at 9:41 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: You're starting your defense of the Shroud of Turin by talking about blood stains... when Jewish custom was (and still is) to cleanse bloodied bodies before burial. And bodies don't bleed after death.

It's also worth noting that the type of herringbone weave in the Shroud is unheard of in textiles in First Century Israel , especially in burial shrouds. In addition, it's been tested multiple times and tested as being from the medieval era.




TL;DR: The Shroud of Turin is a lot less meaningful method of "proving" Christianity than it might seem at first glance.

THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE




Below is a summary of scientific and historical evidence supporting the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin as the ancient burial cloth of the historical Jesus of Nazareth.
by J. Michael Fischer, adapted from the original article by John C. Iannone[

Stitching used to sew on the 3-inch wide side piece onto the main Shroud is nearly identical to that found at Masada which was destroyed in 73-74 AD. The size of the Shroud being very close to 2 by 8 cubits - the ancient unit of measurement 

The Shroud is a linen cloth woven in a 3-over-1 herringbone pattern, and measures 14'3" x 3'7".  These dimensions correlate with ancient measurements of 2 cubits x 8 cubits - consistent with loom technology of the period.  The finer weave of 3-over-1 herringbone is consistent with the New Testament statement that the "sindon" (or shroud) was purchased by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a wealthy man.

In 1532, there was a fire in the church in Chambery, France, where the Shroud was being kept.  Part of the metal storage case melted and fell on the cloth, leaving burns, and efforts to extinguish the fire left water stains.  Yet the image of the man was hardly touched.
In 1534, nuns sewed patches over the fire-damaged areas and attached a full-size support cloth to the back of the Shroud.  This became known as the "Holland" backing cloth.
The Shroud was moved to Turin in 1578, where it remains to this day.

In 2002, a team of experts did restoration work, such as removing the patches from 1534 and replacing the backing cloth.  One of the specialists was Swiss textile historian Mechthild Flury-Lemberg.  She was surprised to find a peculiar stitching pattern in the seam of one long side of the Shroud, where a three-inch wide strip of the same original fabric was sewn onto a larger segment.
The stitching pattern, which she says was the work of a professional, is quite similar to the hem of a cloth found in the tombs of the Jewish fortress of Masada.  The Masada cloth dates to between 40 BC and 73 AD.
This kind of stitch has never been found in Medieval Europe.

(January 18, 2020 at 12:20 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: All of that has been demonstrated to be false over and over again. Why are you dredging this utter nonsense up yet again?

Barrie Schwortz was a member of the Shroud of Turin Research Project (often abbreviated as STURP) a team of scientists which performed a set of experiments and analyses on the Shroud of Turin during the late 1970s and early 1980s. STURP issued its final report in 1981.

After 18 years as a skeptic, in 1995, when confronted with the evidence that the blood on the shroud was of a tortured man, he became convinced of the authenticity of the Shroud, and became a Christian. 

The Shroud and the jew: Barrie Schwortz at TEDx ViadellaConciliazione
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G4sj8hUVaY

"At the beginning of my work, I was very skeptical about its authenticity. I felt no particular emotion toward Jesus because I was raised as an orthodox jew. The only thing I knew about Jesus was that he was a jew, and this was all. Examining the Shroud, I quickly realized that it was painted ".
After 18 years of study, the full conviction came when "the Blood Chemistry Allen Adler, another jew who was part of the study group, I explained why the red blood remained on the Shroud. The old blood would have to be black or brown, while the blood on the Shroud is a red-crimson. It seemed inexplicable, instead it was the last piece of the puzzle. After nearly 20 years of investigation, it was a shock for me to discover that the piece of cloth was the authentic cloth that had been wrapped the body of Jesus. The conclusions I arrived were based exclusively on scientific observation ".
He has no doubt Schwortz: "Once we came to the scientific conclusion that the cloth was authentic, I have come to understand also the meaning. This is the forensic document of the Passion, and for Christians around the world is the most important relic, precisely because it documents everything you read in the Gospels of what was done to Jesus. I think there are enough evidence to prove that this is the cloth that wrapped the body of Jesus ". The truth about Jesus is the task of faith, he states that "from the point of view of science that cloth wrapped the body of man spoken of in the Gospels".
The study of the Shroud has not only convinced of the authenticity, but it has also changed, evidently, also on a personal level.
"At the beginning of the investigation - said Schwortz -, I knew of God, but it was not very important in my life. I had not thought of God, when the avevo 13 years. I was not very religious, it was almost a requirement for my family. Since then I have moved away from the faith, religion and God, until I reached the 50 years. When in 1995 I came to the conclusion that the Shroud was authentic, I built the site www.shroud.com . I started to collect the material and put it to the public. I began to speak publicly about the Shroud around 1996 ".
This dualism, however, could not continue: "When people started asking me if I was a believer, I could not find the answer. At that point I questioned myself and I realized that God was waiting for me. I was really surprised to see that within me there was a belief in God. Fino a 50 years I had pretty much ignored the faith, and suddenly I found myself face to face with God in my heart. Basically I can say that the Shroud was the catalyst that brought me back to God ". He concluded amused: "How many Jews can say that the Shroud of Turin has led them to faith in God"?

Schwortz runs as well the website:
https://www.shroud.com/

I am all too familiar with Schwortz and his website having beaten it to death years ago. It has not improved.

The figure on the tablecloth of turin is wrong. It is anatomically impossible and ethnically absurd. Carbon dating blows any claim of a first century date right out of the water. The weave is medieval. The wrapping method is entirely wrong for jewish funerary protocol at the time. The methods used by STURP are dubious at best. Most christians dont base their faith on a rag of cloth anyway. I could go on, but you get the picture.

Bottom line is that if your faith is so flimsy that it relies on an obvious fake to bolster it, then what value is your faith?
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#33
RE: The shroud of turin
(January 18, 2020 at 8:21 pm)Otangelo Wrote: Most recently Casabianca et al. (2019), based on information obtained after a legal filing with the British Museum, showed that some of the original Shroud date measurements reported by the three laboratories to the British Museum were modified from their original ‘raw’ laboratory values and transformed into their published form using an unstated methodology.

Our review and analysis of the Shroud radiocarbon data reveal a significant shortcoming in the original report by Damon et al. (1989). The shortcoming begins with the lack of adherence to the protocol that W-W define for combining the inter-laboratory data sets.

Rogers (2005) proposed a method for cross checking the dates of ancient textiles by measuring the loss of vanillin from residual lignin at the growth nodes of linen fibers. The tests he performed on the Shroud threads suggested to him a much greater age than the results Damon et al.

Fanti et al. (2013) developed a series of relationships between characteristics of fiber over time and a method of estimating the age of the fabric. He subsequently applied these techniques to a series of fibers extracted from the Shroud and derived an estimated calendar age of 90 AD +/− 200 yrs (Fanti et al., 2015).

Casabianca et al. didn't manage to do more than expand the range of the age slightly. You're looking at multiple AMS 14-C ages from multiple labs, all done double blind with quality control samples. All returned Medieval ages regardless of the age range and uncertainty you want to assign. The vanillin and fibre characteristic techniques are extremely dubious, especially as they are extremely sensitive to the storage conditions. Neither should be regarded as more reliable than the 14-C AMS dates obtained in 1989.
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#34
RE: The shroud of turin
Otangelo Wrote:The shroud of turin...

is a fake. And a badly made one at that.

Next thing you'll be telling us is that all 12 holy prepuces are real.

(January 17, 2020 at 9:41 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: TL;DR: The Shroud of Turin is a lot less meaningful method of "proving" Christianity than it might seem at first glance.

But, hey at least it's a good way to debunk christianity. Somebody put an awful lot of time, effort & money into making it and then selling it. A person well conversant in the catholic practice of making fake relics.
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#35
RE: The shroud of turin
Shroud of Turin is actually an image of Howard Stern's penis.




But it's also a symbol for theists' arguments: no matter how many times you show them they're wrong, they just keep going to the same old debunked arguments and same old logical fallacies and insist that they are right.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#36
RE: The shroud of turin

  1. The cloth is incompatible with New Testament accounts of Jesus' burial. John's gospel (19:38-42, 20:5-7) specifically states that the body was "wound" with "linen clothes". We're told that on reaching the empty tomb, they 'saw the strips of linen lying there'. Still another cloth (called "the napkin") covered his face and head. In contrast, the Shroud of Turin represents a single, draped cloth (laid under and then over the "body").
http://www.sillybeliefs.com/shroud.html#heading-1b
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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#37
RE: The shroud of turin
(January 19, 2020 at 10:29 am)Gwaithmir Wrote:
  1. The cloth is incompatible with New Testament accounts of Jesus' burial. John's gospel (19:38-42, 20:5-7) specifically states that the body was "wound" with "linen clothes". We're told that on reaching the empty tomb, they 'saw the strips of linen lying there'. Still another cloth (called "the napkin") covered his face and head. In contrast, the Shroud of Turin represents a single, draped cloth (laid under and then over the "body").
http://www.sillybeliefs.com/shroud.html#heading-1b

It’s also kind of problematic that the Sudarium Of Oviedo is claimed to be Jesus’ face-cloth. This bloodstained rag doesn’t have an image. Why would the Shroud bear an image, but not the Sudarium?  

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#38
RE: The shroud of turin
It was carbon dated some years ago to around the 14th/15th century so cannot have been the shroud Jesus was wrapped in. Even given the range of possible error for this date it is way too modern to be 1st century.
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#39
RE: The shroud of turin
Quote:1. It's a painting 1
If this were true, it should be possible to identify the pigments used by chemical analysis, just as conservators can do for the paintings of Old Masters.

Would you like to know all the ways this is wrong? If so, get a ph.d. in organic chemistry.
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#40
RE: The shroud of turin
We're constantly told that there is evidence for christ - and to that end, we're directed to consider a stick figure drawn on a bedsheet.

....the quality of miraculous demonstration has certainly declined since the days when god himself would curse a fig.
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