Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 3:20 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why do some people condone hell?
#11
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
I think it helps if you compare Hell to real-life prisons. You break the law, you go to prison. You break God's law, you go to Hell. For many believers in Hell, it's just that simple. And, of course, a lot of prisons in the real world are appalling places to be. I recently re-listened to Last Podcast on the Left's series on Carl Panzram, and if you ever wanted to know what could drive a man to say and do shit like:
Carl Panzram Wrote:In my lifetime I have murdered 21 human beings. I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies Larcenys, arsons and last but not least I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings. for all of these things I am not the least bit sorry. I have no conscience so that does not worry me. I don’t believe in Man, God nor devil. I hate the whole damed human race including myself.
... look no further than the first episode, where the gang talk about such things as a home brain surgery (yes, really) on a mastoid in his brain that he had removed at age 9, an incident a couple years later where he tried to become a hobo, only to get gang-raped by them, and, the one they dwell on the most, institutional abuse. At the age of 11, he was sent to the Minnesota State Training School, with its notorious "paint shop." It was a place where kids were painted black, blue, and red, often having their backs moistened with salt water, then beaten with leather straps with holes in them, creating blisters made all the worse by the salt water. Panzram would later burn the paint shop down. And that's not even the most abusive prison he was sent to. And, of course, they didn't just do this with the most monstrous prisoners. They did this with pretty much all the prisoners. And many prisons are still like this, think of the border camps the US is using as concentration camps for illegal immigrants. Or, indeed, I saw a recent movie from Lebanon called Capernaum where the main character, a child, is sent to prison, and if that film is any indication, the sort of shit that most right-thinking people decry in the US' border camps is Standard Operating Procedure for Lebanon's penal system.

And, bear in mind, if the people knew about this, in most cases, they either didn't care about the people undergoing these tortures, they just didn't think about it, or took them as incentives to stay on the straight and narrow. After all, if they're there, they must have done something beyond the pale, right? Take this PragerU video that I found from Shaun's latest video debunking it as an example of this mindset:



To be fair, believing that two wastes of jism who raped, strangled, and set fire to (in various permutations) a woman and her two daughters and beat the paterfamilias within an inch of his life should die isn't quite the same as thinking that prisons should have free rein to torture their prisoners for whatever reason, but notice how self-evident it seems to Prager, that this is the one issue that he legitimately does not understand why the other side believes what they do. I strongly suspect that the same applies to believers who believe in and justify Hell.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
Reply
#12
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 17, 2020 at 2:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If any theist, Christian or Muslim or Jew rightfully condemns states like North Korea, and that absolute power, why is it ok for someone to expect me to value a being that watches me every second of my life, even when I pee or shit or have sex? "God" as a concept is right out of George Orwell's 1984, except far worse. At least with Kim Jong Un, if he murders you he cant torture you after you die.






'At least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!'
Miserable Bastard.
Reply
#13
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 17, 2020 at 7:58 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: I think it helps if you compare Hell to real-life prisons. You break the law, you go to prison. You break God's law, you go to Hell. For many believers in Hell, it's just that simple. And, of course, a lot of prisons in the real world are appalling places to be. I recently re-listened to Last Podcast on the Left's series on Carl Panzram, and if you ever wanted to know what could drive a man to say and do shit like:
Carl Panzram Wrote:In my lifetime I have murdered 21 human beings. I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies Larcenys, arsons and last but not least I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings. for all of these things I am not the least bit sorry. I have no conscience so that does not worry me. I don’t believe in Man, God nor devil. I hate the whole damed human race including myself.
... look no further than the first episode, where the gang talk about such things as a home brain surgery (yes, really) on a mastoid in his brain that he had removed at age 9, an incident a couple years later where he tried to become a hobo, only to get gang-raped by them, and, the one they dwell on the most, institutional abuse. At  the age of 11, he was sent to the Minnesota State Training School, with its notorious "paint shop." It was a place where kids were painted black, blue, and red, often having their backs moistened with salt water, then beaten with leather straps with holes in them, creating blisters made all the worse by the salt water. Panzram would later burn the paint shop down. And that's not even the most abusive prison he was sent to. And, of course, they didn't just do this with the most monstrous prisoners.  They did this with pretty much all the prisoners. And many prisons are still like this, think of the border camps the US is using as concentration camps for illegal immigrants. Or, indeed, I saw a recent movie from Lebanon called Capernaum where the main character, a child, is sent to prison, and if that film is any indication, the sort of shit that most right-thinking people decry in the US' border camps is Standard Operating Procedure for Lebanon's penal system.

And, bear in mind, if the people knew about this, in most cases, they either didn't care about the people undergoing these tortures, they just didn't think about it, or took them as incentives to stay on the straight and narrow. After all, if they're there, they must have done something beyond the pale, right? Take this PragerU video that I found from Shaun's latest video debunking it as an example of this mindset:



To be fair, believing that two wastes of jism who raped, strangled, and set fire to (in various permutations) a woman and her two daughters and beat the paterfamilias within an inch of his life should die isn't quite the same as thinking that prisons should have free rein to torture their prisoners for whatever reason, but notice how self-evident it seems to Prager, that this is the one issue that he legitimately does not understand why the other side believes what they do. I strongly suspect that the same applies to believers who believe in and justify Hell.
And need i point out that unlike  the prison system evil is all god's fault
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
#14
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 18, 2020 at 5:19 pm)Succubus#2 Wrote:
(May 17, 2020 at 2:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If any theist, Christian or Muslim or Jew rightfully condemns states like North Korea, and that absolute power, why is it ok for someone to expect me to value a being that watches me every second of my life, even when I pee or shit or have sex? "God" as a concept is right out of George Orwell's 1984, except far worse. At least with Kim Jong Un, if he murders you he cant torture you after you die.






'At least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!'

Man I miss him. Got to meet him briefly to get an autograph back in 07 at the "Crystal Clear" convention in DC.

The thing about most theists who know of him, and even some sensitive atheists, they see him more of a "Malcolm X" turn off because of his verbal bluntness.

But to me I get him. If one listens to enough of his his speeches, and enough of his books, he is a very kind and accommodating person. In his book "God Is Not Great" in his first chapter he talks of one of his grade school teachers, he liked her, but when she started talking religious nonsense he said to himself "WTF". In a later chapter he talked about his travels and going into all sorts of different holy places, and respecting the customs while in them. 

But, he was more like the atheist "Judge Judy", and if you tried to appeal to him in a debate, he wouldn't mince words. Kinda like if you had a friend who kept on walking around and repeating everyday, " The Washington Redskins beat Serena Williams in the NHL Stanley Cup".   Hitchens would be the guy saying, "Are you fucking nuts?"

It is possible to like and love an individual or be friends with them and still find some of their claims nutty. That was Hitchens.

He wasn't attacking human rights in this clip, just the logic. You get that, that is why you posted this clip, and thank you. But lots of people dont get him.

I just have to say also, if Trump tried to debate Hitchens on anything, it would be like a dead slug trying to debate Einstein. 

Trump to Hitchens, "I know you are but what am I.'

Hitchens to Trump, "Your lexicon is sophomoric."

Trump to Hitchen's "TOGA PARTY!"

(May 18, 2020 at 6:08 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:
(May 17, 2020 at 7:58 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: I think it helps if you compare Hell to real-life prisons. You break the law, you go to prison. You break God's law, you go to Hell. For many believers in Hell, it's just that simple. And, of course, a lot of prisons in the real world are appalling places to be. I recently re-listened to Last Podcast on the Left's series on Carl Panzram, and if you ever wanted to know what could drive a man to say and do shit like:
... look no further than the first episode, where the gang talk about such things as a home brain surgery (yes, really) on a mastoid in his brain that he had removed at age 9, an incident a couple years later where he tried to become a hobo, only to get gang-raped by them, and, the one they dwell on the most, institutional abuse. At  the age of 11, he was sent to the Minnesota State Training School, with its notorious "paint shop." It was a place where kids were painted black, blue, and red, often having their backs moistened with salt water, then beaten with leather straps with holes in them, creating blisters made all the worse by the salt water. Panzram would later burn the paint shop down. And that's not even the most abusive prison he was sent to. And, of course, they didn't just do this with the most monstrous prisoners.  They did this with pretty much all the prisoners. And many prisons are still like this, think of the border camps the US is using as concentration camps for illegal immigrants. Or, indeed, I saw a recent movie from Lebanon called Capernaum where the main character, a child, is sent to prison, and if that film is any indication, the sort of shit that most right-thinking people decry in the US' border camps is Standard Operating Procedure for Lebanon's penal system.

And, bear in mind, if the people knew about this, in most cases, they either didn't care about the people undergoing these tortures, they just didn't think about it, or took them as incentives to stay on the straight and narrow. After all, if they're there, they must have done something beyond the pale, right? Take this PragerU video that I found from Shaun's latest video debunking it as an example of this mindset:



To be fair, believing that two wastes of jism who raped, strangled, and set fire to (in various permutations) a woman and her two daughters and beat the paterfamilias within an inch of his life should die isn't quite the same as thinking that prisons should have free rein to torture their prisoners for whatever reason, but notice how self-evident it seems to Prager, that this is the one issue that he legitimately does not understand why the other side believes what they do. I strongly suspect that the same applies to believers who believe in and justify Hell.
And need i point out that unlike  the prison system evil is all god's fault

This guy is misleading. 

I am against the death penalty, but not for the reasons he is falsely assuming everyone against it is against it for all the same reasons.

 Are there evil people that in a perfect world would that would be the only people convicted? No.

My objection to the death penalty isn't to say even a murder's life is worth the same as a jaywalker. NO.

My objection to it, is because we do not live in a perfect system, innocent people can and are convicted. In my college years I took a journalism class, and during that semester I met a white guy, middle age, who spoke at our college, who was wrongfully convicted and years later set free. Another time I spoke over the phone with a death row inmate, and the only evidence for his crime, because he was not in for murder, but another inmate died, and it is common for inmates to lie to prison authorities to gain favors while in prison. In that case it was nothing but a he said he said. In both cases the evidence wasn't even close to circumstantial. 

Even with other crimes. Not just murder, if you cannot afford a private lawyer, you are stuck with a public defender, and they have very heavy caseloads and do not have the time to spend with each defendant. So quite often the accuse will plead out, even if they don't want to to avoid a harsher punishment in trial. Prosecution budgets swamp public defenders budgets. So  basically, unless you are rich, you are behind the eightball from the start, even if you are innocent. And just on taxpayers issues alone, it costs more to prosecute a death penalty case than to simply give the person life in prison. 

But, the biggest reason I am against the death penalty is that it disproportionately hurts the poor who do not have the money to mount a defense.



Did Ted Bundy deserve death? YES. But this isn't about one man, but our long term system. What about the other guy, who is innocent but just simply looked like the real killer? What about the fact that even DNA labs in the past have lied about numbers to gain contracts from a over zealous prosecutor who had political aspirations. Those things have happened in American history. 

The point is not to have sympathy for the truly evil or guilty. But to value the principle that it is better to let 10 guilty go free than to convict one innocent person. And once the state kills someone you cant bring them back if they are innocent. 






I

People like OJ, and the actor who played Barretta and even Ted Bundy, are not the norm in most murder cases. In most murder cases, the public never hears about them, and many times the evidence could be nothing but word of mouth. In a perfect world only the guilty would get convicted. But we do not live in a perfect world.
Reply
#15
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
Quote:the actor who played Barretta

Robert Blake.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#16
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 18, 2020 at 6:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: This guy is misleading. 

I am against the death penalty, but not for the reasons he is falsely assuming everyone against it is against it for all the same reasons.

 Are there evil people that in a perfect world would that would be the only people convicted? No.

My objection to the death penalty isn't to say even a murder's life is worth the same as a jaywalker. NO.

My objection to it, is because we do not live in a perfect system, innocent people can and are convicted. In my college years I took a journalism class, and during that semester I met a white guy, middle age, who spoke at our college, who was wrongfully convicted and years later set free. Another time I spoke over the phone with a death row inmate, and the only evidence for his crime, because he was not in for murder, but another inmate died, and it is common for inmates to lie to prison authorities to gain favors while in prison. In that case it was nothing but a he said he said. In both cases the evidence wasn't even close to circumstantial. 

Even with other crimes. Not just murder, if you cannot afford a private lawyer, you are stuck with a public defender, and they have very heavy caseloads and do not have the time to spend with each defendant. So quite often the accuse will plead out, even if they don't want to to avoid a harsher punishment in trial. Prosecution budgets swamp public defenders budgets. So  basically, unless you are rich, you are behind the eightball from the start, even if you are innocent. And just on taxpayers issues alone, it costs more to prosecute a death penalty case than to simply give the person life in prison. 

But, the biggest reason I am against the death penalty is that it disproportionately hurts the poor who do not have the money to mount a defense.



Did Ted Bundy deserve death? YES. But this isn't about one man, but our long term system. What about the other guy, who is innocent but just simply looked like the real killer? What about the fact that even DNA labs in the past have lied about numbers to gain contracts from a over zealous prosecutor who had political aspirations. Those things have happened in American history. 

The point is not to have sympathy for the truly evil or guilty. But to value the principle that it is better to let 10 guilty go free than to convict one innocent person. And once the state kills someone you cant bring them back if they are innocent. 
And so we have the gist of Shaun's video that led me to the PragerU video he was debunking.


Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
Reply
#17
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 17, 2020 at 2:43 am)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: Concepts like hell are exactly why im losing more faith in religion and turning more atheist. Some people claim it's justice, really?

Then why not just pick a Christian denomination that doesn't include hell? There are so many Christianities that you can choose the one that suits to what ever you want it to be. There are even Christianities without Jesus. I mean I remember watching that movie "Christmas With Cranks" and there was not one reference to Jesus although it is a Christmas movie. And why not go back to so called pagan religions - which were much better before they added Jesus in it.

Btw there is a Christian preacher called Carlton Pearson who back in 2004, at the height of his career, started preaching that there can't be hell because then God would not be better than Hitler and Stalin - AND his career went down the drain. Christians left his church and he was defrocked, Oral Roberts spoke on TV that Carlton is under the influence of the devil and the whole Roberts family went oral on him, but he still preaches.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#18
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 19, 2020 at 12:25 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(May 17, 2020 at 2:43 am)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: Concepts like hell are exactly why im losing more faith in religion and turning more atheist. Some people claim it's justice, really?

Then why not just pick a Christian denomination that doesn't include hell? There are so many Christianities that you can choose the one that suits to what ever you want it to be. There are even Christianities without Jesus. I mean I remember watching that movie "Christmas With Cranks" and there was not one reference to Jesus although it is a Christmas movie. And why not go back to so called pagan religions - which were much better before they added Jesus in it.

Btw there is a Christian preacher called Carlton Pearson who back in 2004, at the height of his career, started preaching that there can't be hell because then God would not be better than Hitler and Stalin - AND his career went down the drain. Christians left his church and he was defrocked, Oral Roberts spoke on TV that Carlton is under the influence of the devil and the whole Roberts family went oral on him, but he still preaches.

Christmas with the Kranks is your go-to example of a secular Christmas movie? A movie where the neighbors treat not celebrating Christmas in a specific way like it’s a massive scandal worthy of front page news and a harassment campaign? And the movie ends up expecting the viewer to take their fucking side? A film that probably would have made the Deep Hurting Project a couple years ago?

 Hell, most versions of A Christmas Carol fit the bill. Even the Muppet one.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

[Image: harmlesskitchen.png]

I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
Reply
#19
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
Listen everyone, I appreciate the replies, I understand how there are hells in other religions, but i'm mainly addressing the Christian one (though in part I could also be addressing the other hells of religions too), now yes I know some religions don't have underworlds, and yes I am aware of some bible passages that say the soul will be destroyed but hell itself will go on or something like that, but since the bible is a huge mess of contradictions, I don't know which idea to trust, eternal damnation or the second death, the bible can't seem to make up its mind. The point is, anybody who agrees with being burned forever and ever with no end simply because of something that person did like not accepting Jesus, murder, rape, robbery, etc or someone who doesn't agree but is just fine with it (basically: "I don't agree with it, but it must be done") is PSYCHOTIC. Underworlds are nothing but products of sick, and demented religions
Reply
#20
RE: Why do some people condone hell?
(May 19, 2020 at 3:29 am)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: Listen everyone, I appreciate the replies, I understand how there are hells in other religions, but i'm mainly addressing the Christian one (though in part I could also be addressing the other hells of religions too), now yes I know some religions don't have underworlds, and yes I am aware of some bible passages that say the soul will be destroyed but hell itself will go on or something like that, but since the bible is a huge mess of contradictions, I don't know which idea to trust, eternal damnation or the second death, the bible can't seem to make up its mind. The point is, anybody who agrees with being burned forever and ever with no end simply because of something that person did like not accepting Jesus, murder, rape, robbery, etc or someone who doesn't agree but is just fine with it (basically: "I don't agree with it, but it must be done") is PSYCHOTIC. Underworlds are nothing but products of sick, and demented religions

You are asking probably an impossible question. Why people believe in hell probably has few reasons. If you think of "decent" Christians and how they can believe in hell, then the reason probably is that they don't think much about it or, should I say, avoid thinking about it. You know, just like with Christians who acknowledge evolution – they just don’t think about its devastating repercussions on Christianity ("Don't look down"). And some of them whitewash hell like there was a Christian member on this forum who said that there is no torture in hell, but that it's just "dark place without God".

Indeed, religion is not something rational, but something that people do on their emotions - just like you now see Christians claiming they don't need to wear a surgical mask because God will look after them while they carry AR-15 because God won't take care of them. It doesn't make any sense.

Now, of course, there are plenty of Christians that just get off on hate and are addicted to hate that they spend most of their day thinking about the antichrist, masonic lodges, Zionism and how they’re all going to hell.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why people remain in cultlike religious communities Won2blv 6 646 April 1, 2022 at 7:59 pm
Last Post: Rev. Rye
  HELL or not HELL? Little Rik 91 10949 November 10, 2018 at 12:23 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Why do some believers claim that all religions are just as good? Der/die AtheistIn 22 3692 June 25, 2018 at 12:10 pm
Last Post: Succubus
  Why are some moderate religious afraid of atheism? Der/die AtheistIn 38 5158 February 26, 2018 at 8:45 am
Last Post: Cod
  Why some humans are so evil: double standards and irreligion WinterHold 124 19700 January 28, 2018 at 5:38 am
Last Post: downbeatplumb
  Why do some moderates get so attached to other believers? Der/die AtheistIn 4 1246 December 19, 2017 at 9:28 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways? Greatest I am 129 18784 November 27, 2017 at 9:35 am
Last Post: Cod
  Why are the Abraham religions so interested in controlling people sexually NuclearEnergy 42 11065 June 21, 2017 at 11:27 am
Last Post: John V
  Why Do Atheists Criticize People's Beliefs? Rhondazvous 225 51740 June 5, 2017 at 9:48 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why do some religious people think the world revolves around them? Cecelia 28 9421 June 3, 2017 at 11:57 am
Last Post: J a c k



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)