[Quranic Reflection]: moon absorbed by the sun in the Quran: far future.

[Fake Messiah]

or that the revelations really came from some agent outside of him.

Yes Quran did come from outside of Mohammed, that is it mainly came from Jewish rabbis, and since Mohammed was illiterate he probably hang out with Jews a lot. The only prophets (with few exceptions) mentioned in the Quran are the Jewish prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. The most important of these were Noah, Abraham, Jacob and, as one Quranic passage lists them, “David and Solomon, Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron . . . Zacharias and John, Jesus and Elias . . . and Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot” (6:84–87).

[Ranjr]

[Apollo]

While there are various points of logical failures in the debate about god itself, Islam further has notions that add to it exponantially.  For example, the whole religion itself hinges on a very narrow narrative that Mo supposedly spoke to an angel in a cave.  That's it. That's the whole premise of Islam on which it further builds the quranic and hadith and everything else.

This narrative in itself is never really questions.  Kinda like virgin birth (or some other stupid shit-fact) in Christianity.  It's just taken on it face value and never really questioned the very possibility of it.

It's because taking this narrative at face value makes more sense than other explanations, the best explanation of everything Muhammad did is simply that his prophecy is genuine. It's unbelievable that modern historians of Islam concede that Muhammad was sincere, which really leaves one with two choices : either mental illness, something like motor seizures of temporal lobe epilepsy, the result of its spells are the Qur'an, or that the revelations really came from some agent outside of him.

The diagnosis of epilepsy is only defended within the circles of christian polemics. Orientalists like W. Montgomery Watt or Theodor Noldëke completely reject it.

Or he could be lying or it could be a combination of schizophrenia in part and lying.  But the "Outside agent" is not a possibility.  1400 years ago people thought that was a possibility and they accepted the story at face value but we can now concretely rule out that possibility based on our knowledge of the natural world and reality.

People who still insist have to first and foremost provide explanation as to how this "outside agent" can exist (what is he made of etc –– since for it to be able to interact with our reality it needs to be made up of the particles within the current standard model) and how such communication can occur (again, standard model, four forces of nature etc or else it can't interact with our reality).

The gist of the above is that we can't take something someone said and then try to fit into our reality but instead have to stay within the confines of our reality and natural world and then decide what is:

1. Possible
   
2. Not possible
   
3. We don't know if possible or not possible
   

The existence of any "outside agent" (angel, god, what have you) falls under the category of #2.  If you think it's rather #1 then please, by all means, explain away with relevant math and cosmic model.

[R00tKiT]

Or he could be lying or it could be a combination of schizophrenia in part and lying.  

I am not sure a schizophrenic person can unite Arabia under one flag and convince military leaders to leave their families -even fight their families - for his cause. Maybe you want to elaborate on that and quote some specific event in his life to support this diagnosis.

A liar can't sustain his lie for this long. Especially, as it is the case with Muhammad, when every detail of his life is scrutinized and recordeed. We have reports of his wife catching him crying during prayer, descriptions of his sleep position, what hand he eats with, his reaction when they accused his wife of having an affair, and many many mundane details about his everyday life, Everything Muslims say during prayer is a verbatim copy of what Muhammad said when performing it.

But the "Outside agent" is not a possibility.

If a God exists, nothing is impossible (unless it's logically impossible), and definitely not an angel.

People who still insist have to first and foremost provide explanation as to how this "outside agent" can exist (what is he made of etc –– since for it to be able to interact with our reality it needs to be made up of the particles within the current standard model) and how such communication can occur (again, standard model, four forces of nature etc or else it can't interact with our reality).

I am not sure I follow you here. It's not hard for an all powerful deity to hack the standard model and put an angel somewhere, or make it invisible to our finest detectors. Sure, the burden of proof is on us, about whether Muhammad met an outside agent or made it all up. Our argument is, everything we have and know about him doesn't square at all with a liar would do. And we really know a lot about him. In other words, his biography is better explained if he were sincere than if he were not.

But you're free to attempt to prove otherwise. I'm just warning you that a lot of very competent historians already investigated his Sira' and reached the same conclusion, as long as they accept oral transmission as a valid means of preserving his sayings.

1. Possible
   
2. Not possible
   
3. We don't know if possible or not possible
   

The existence of any "outside agent" (angel, god, what have you) falls under the category of #2.  If you think it's rather #1 then please, by all means, explain away with relevant math and cosmic model.

The existence of god is supported by other arguments entirely, not the prophecy of Muhammad. The teleological argument is very compelling, as I explained in my other thread (absurd need for logical proofs).

Now, if a just god exists, one of the religion surely has to be genuine. If the smallest particle in the universe follows instructions (that is, laws of physics), it's impossible for human beings not to have ones.

Islam, in my (informed) opinion, is not only the closest to be the right religion, it's actually the only religion. No other religion simultaneously endorses strict monotheism and gives a coherent idea of an afterlife, a necessary element to fulfill the property of justness of God.

[Apollo]

Or he could be lying or it could be a combination of schizophrenia in part and lying.  

I am not sure a schizophrenic person can unite Arabia under one flag and convince military leaders to leave their families -even fight their families - for his cause. Maybe you want to elaborate on that and quote some specific event in his life to support this diagnosis.

A liar can't sustain his lie for this long. Especially, as it is the case with Muhammad, when every detail of his life is scrutinized and recordeed. We have reports of his wife catching him crying during prayer, descriptions of his sleep position, what hand he eats with, his reaction when they accused his wife of having an affair, and many many mundane details about his everyday life, Everything Muslims say during prayer is a verbatim copy of what Muhammad said when performing it.

But the "Outside agent" is not a possibility.

If a God exists, nothing is impossible (unless it's logically impossible), and definitely not an angel.

People who still insist have to first and foremost provide explanation as to how this "outside agent" can exist (what is he made of etc –– since for it to be able to interact with our reality it needs to be made up of the particles within the current standard model) and how such communication can occur (again, standard model, four forces of nature etc or else it can't interact with our reality).

I am not sure I follow you here. It's not hard for an all powerful deity to hack the standard model and put an angel somewhere, or make it invisible to our finest detectors. Sure, the burden of proof is on us, about whether Muhammad met an outside agent or made it all up. Our argument is, everything we have and know about him doesn't square at all with a liar would do. And we really know a lot about him. In other words, his biography is better explained if he were sincere than if he were not.

But you're free to attempt to prove otherwise. I'm just warning you that a lot of very competent historians already investigated his Sira' and reached the same conclusion, as long as they accept oral transmission as a valid means of preserving his sayings.

1. Possible
   
2. Not possible
   
3. We don't know if possible or not possible
   

The existence of any "outside agent" (angel, god, what have you) falls under the category of #2.  If you think it's rather #1 then please, by all means, explain away with relevant math and cosmic model.

The existence of god is supported by other arguments entirely, not the prophecy of Muhammad. The teleological argument is very compelling, as I explained in my other thread (absurd need for logical proofs).

Now, if a just god exists, one of the religion surely has to be genuine. If the smallest particle in the universe follows instructions (that is, laws of physics), it's impossible for human beings not to have ones.

Islam, in my (informed) opinion, is not the only the closest to be the right religion, it's actually the only religion. No other religion endorses strict monotheism and gives a coherent idea of afterlife other than Islam.

Like I said before take your time—you can also “hacking of the standard model “ to the list of things too.

Mo met an angel—show us the equations.

[R00tKiT]

Like I said before take your time—you can also “hacking of the standard model “ to the list of things too.

Mo met an angel—show us the equations.

Ask God, maybe?

I cannot, or any Muslim, prove the occurence of a pointwise event, including the one you're asking for. We can only make a cumulative argument supporting his prophethood, which includes the existence of a just God, and the undeniable fact that he was sincere until his death.

Read my last sentence : Islam is not only the most tenable candidate of the right religion, it's the only religion with a coherent definition of afterlife AND a strong injunction for monotheism.

If you drop that, you drop a fundamental property of God, whom we already conceded exists, for the sake of this argument.

---

and since Mohammed was illiterate he probably hang out with Jews a lot.

And you think his companions wouldn't know about it ? Not even his first wife - a Muslim ?

The only prophets (with few exceptions) mentioned in the Quran are the Jewish prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. The most important of these were Noah, Abraham, Jacob and, as one Quranic passage lists them, “David and Solomon, Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron . . . Zacharias and John, Jesus and Elias . . . and Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot” (6:84–87).

That doesn't mean he "hang out with the Jews". It's an objective fact that many major prophets are Jewish. And just because the Qur'an records this fact doesn't mean it was forgerd.

[Apollo]

Like I said before take your time—you can also “hacking of the standard model “ to the list of things too.

Mo met an angel—show us the equations.

Ask God, maybe?

I cannot, or any Muslim, prove the occurence of a pointwise event, including the one you're asking for. We can only make a cumulative argument supporting his prophethood, which includes the existence of a just God, and the undeniable fact that he was sincere until his death.

Read my last sentence : Islam is not only the most tenable candidate of the right religion, it's the only religion with a coherent definition of afterlife AND a strong injunction for monotheism.

If you drop that, you drop a fundamental property of God, whom we already conceded exists, for the sake of this argument.

---

and since Mohammed was illiterate he probably hang out with Jews a lot.

And you think his companions wouldn't know about it ? Not even his first wife - a Muslim ?

The only prophets (with few exceptions) mentioned in the Quran are the Jewish prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. The most important of these were Noah, Abraham, Jacob and, as one Quranic passage lists them, “David and Solomon, Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron . . . Zacharias and John, Jesus and Elias . . . and Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot” (6:84–87).

That doesn't mean he "hang out with the Jews". It's an objective fact that many major prophets are Jewish. And just because the Qur'an records this fact doesn't mean it was forgerd.

“ Ask God, maybe?”

And there you have it—you are finally making little bit sense. “Ask god” because if such a god exists he/she/it/they will satisfactorily explain everything using the building blocks of reality (quantum fields) in comprehensive manner and no one else would have to make any claim including you and Mo.

So until “god” comes forth armed with some very interesting equations we should stop making claims and since until that happens there is no reason for us to believe or claim otherwise.

[R00tKiT]

“ Ask God, maybe?”

And there you have it—you are finally making little bit sense. “Ask god” because if such a god exists he/she/it/they will satisfactorily explain everything using the building blocks of reality (quantum fields) in comprehensive  manner and no one else would have to make any claim including you and Mo.

So until “god” comes forth armed with some very interesting equations we should stop making claims and since until that happens there is no reason for us to believe or claim otherwise.

You're dodging my argument, now.

The existence of god is independent of any religious claim.

If a just God exists, one religion is forcibly true.

Islam is the most tenable candidate for that because it endorses strict monotheism and solves the problem of evil, no other religion does these two things.

[Apollo]

“ Ask God, maybe?”

And there you have it—you are finally making little bit sense. “Ask god” because if such a god exists he/she/it/they will satisfactorily explain everything using the building blocks of reality (quantum fields) in comprehensive  manner and no one else would have to make any claim including you and Mo.

So until “god” comes forth armed with some very interesting equations we should stop making claims and since until that happens there is no reason for us to believe or claim otherwise.

You're dodging my argument, now.

The existence of god is independent of any religious claim.

If a just God exists, one religion is forcibly true.

Islam is the most tenable candidate for that because it endorses strict monotheism and solves the problem of evil, no other religion does these two things.

Religious or not, a claim of existence is a claim of existence that is confined within the constraints of reality/laws of nature. Show me the equations to prove that existence.

Saying something is this or not doesn’t make it so.

[R00tKiT]

Religious or not, a claim of existence is a claim of existence that is confined within the constraints of reality/laws of nature. Show me the equations to prove that existence.

Saying something is this or not doesn’t make it so.

Your request is absurd, actually. Equations don't prove existence, they are descriptive, not prescriptive.

I discussed the telological argument for God in lengthy detail in my thread, you might want to check it out;