The Archaeology Thread

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Also, contrary to popular belief, the javelins were NOT deliberately designed to bend on impact, so the barbarians couldn't throw them back.

Boru

And those that hit were not easily removed.

Cunning bastards, the Romans.

That's how the error started - having to jerk and twist the thing to pull it out of a dead German is what caused the bending.

Boru

[The Valkyrie]

And those that hit were not easily removed.

Cunning bastards, the Romans.

That's how the error started - having to jerk and twist the thing to pull it out of a dead German is what caused the bending.

Boru

I believe there was a Celtic spear with backward facing barbs on the shaft to make attempting to pull it out do even more damage.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

That's how the error started - having to jerk and twist the thing to pull it out of a dead German is what caused the bending.

Boru

I believe there was a Celtic spear with backward facing barbs on the shaft to make attempting to pull it out do even more damage.

Nudger's previous name - Gae Bolga - meant (roughly) 'belly ripper'. It was the mythic version of the average, everyday barbed spear.

Boru

[The Valkyrie]

Gae Bolga.

That was the one I heard.

[Abaddon_ire]

Also, contrary to popular belief, the javelins were NOT deliberately designed to bend on impact, so the barbarians couldn't throw them back.

Boru

And those that hit were not easily removed.

Cunning bastards, the Romans.

The Mongols sorted that by wearing silk.

[Anomalocaris]

-and those dice were religious artifacts, just saying.

Another fun fact, the romans notched their javelins at the angle at which they would whistle through the air not because there was a practical benefit to javelin flight in this arrangement, or that they believed javelins could be better thrown if they did so...., but because they knew it produced an overwhelming fear which caused the enemy to make mistakes.

The original whistling death.

Also, contrary to popular belief, the javelins were NOT deliberately designed to bend on impact, so the barbarians couldn't throw them back. Although, there is some evidence that Marius (he of the 'mules') had the pilum redesigned so that the entire head of the thing would break from the shaft on impact.

Boru

The metal shaft of the spear was annealed, while the tip was then tempered and hammered.    If it was deliberately designed to bent on impact, that would have been the obvious way to do so.

Some Roman pilum was also apparently designed in such a way that the tang of the metal tip was attached to the wooden shaft with a rivet and a dower.  The dower would sheer upon impact, leaving the shaft attached to the tip with just one rivet, so the tip would just dangle loosely from the shaft, making it impossible for the pilum to be re-used without a trip to the armorer to insert a new rivet or dower.

That's how the error started - having to jerk and twist the thing to pull it out of a dead German is what caused the bending.

Boru

I believe there was a Celtic spear with backward facing barbs on the shaft to make attempting to pull it out do even more damage.

That also makes it more likely that the spear will get stuck behind bone, or armor. So it can’t be pulled out and reused.     I guess if you primarily fight unarmored opponents with no shields, you can always try to thrust for the stomach where there is no bone.    If you fight a Roman legionary you have to go through his shield, and then his armor.   During imperial times the armor would have been plate, making piercing the shield and armor dubious, and pulling the barbed point back out unlikely. 

Most ancient spear points were broad symmetrical leaf shape, deliberately designed to be as wide as would still allow a deep penetration, sometimes through armor, so as to do as much damage as possible going in, but have a more or less symmetrical shape front and back so as be easy to pull back out so the spear can be reused.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, you need something blunt and heavy to deal with shock troops. Still the case today. A barbed spears utility, back in the day, was more that it could be used to get you to the battle- fishing, and then used against peasants in battle.

[Abaddon_ire]

Also in Turkey is Çatalhöyük. Fascinating early attempt at a city. Lots of homes, but no streets between them. One's east wall was also one's neighbours west wall and so on. How did one commute? One climbed out a trapdoor in the ceiling and skipped across the rooftops.

That seems odd to us, but they seemed quite content with the arrangement.

I still think the all time winner so far is the Mungo peoples of Australia. ca. 40,000 or more years ago they were sailing oceans with amazing aplomb.

Alas, we cannot investigate them anymore because "religious reasons".

[Anomalocaris]

Also in Turkey is Çatalhöyük. Fascinating early attempt at a city. Lots of homes, but no streets between them. One's east wall was also one's neighbours west wall and so on. How did one commute? One climbed out a trapdoor in the ceiling and skipped across the rooftops.

That seems odd to us, but they seemed quite content with the arrangement.

I still think the all time winner so far is the Mungo peoples of Australia. ca. 40,000 or more years ago they were sailing oceans with amazing aplomb.

Alas, we cannot investigate them anymore because "religious reasons".

Why are mungo people the all times winner?   Their ancester’s may have developed over-the-horizon seafaring to get to Australia,  but Mungo people lived well over 100 miles from sea,  and exhibit no signs of continuing to have any association with, or any influence from, sea faring.   They lived near an inland lake in a manner probably difficult to distinguish from thousands of other early Homo sapien settlements that probably existed at the same time across Africa, Europe, Asia and Australia.      The only thing distinguishing them is they exhibited the earliest  known example of ceremonial cremation, and some burial traditions they exhibit that may have been continuous with modern aborigine practice.

[Abaddon_ire]

Also in Turkey is Çatalhöyük. Fascinating early attempt at a city. Lots of homes, but no streets between them. One's east wall was also one's neighbours west wall and so on. How did one commute? One climbed out a trapdoor in the ceiling and skipped across the rooftops.

That seems odd to us, but they seemed quite content with the arrangement.

I still think the all time winner so far is the Mungo peoples of Australia. ca. 40,000 or more years ago they were sailing oceans with amazing aplomb.

Alas, we cannot investigate them anymore because "religious reasons".

Why are mungo people the all times winner?   Their ancester’s may have developed over-the-horizon seafaring to get to Australia,  but Mungo people lived well over 100 miles from sea,  and exhibit no signs of continuing to have any association with, or any influence from, sea faring.   They lived near an inland lake in a manner probably difficult to distinguish from thousands of other early Homo sapien settlements that probably existed at the same time across Africa, Europe, Asia and Australia.      The only thing distinguishing them is they exhibited the earliest  known example of ceremonial cremation, and some burial traditions they exhibit that may have been continuous with modern aborigine practice.

That's the puzzle. They sailed across oceans with apparently no knowledge what or even if there might be anything on the other end of the journey. Making landfall in Australia, they abandoned their boats and migrated inland to an oasis they couldn't possibly have known was there.

That gives rise to a boatload (haha) of questions. We could research further of course. But we cannot because "religious reasons". Did Columbus discover America? Of course not. Columbus never set foot on it, ever.

My point is that ancient peoples are horribly underestimated as a matter of course. They were not stupid.