Benevolent Creator God?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I’m confused. You think that a story about someone claiming divinity is evidence that he was divine? How is that not circular?

You asked for an example of something in the Qur'an that Muhammad couldn't have gotten from local knowledge, the Paraoh's claim of divinity is a detail that is not in the Bible or even the apocrypha. You could of course claim Muhammad could travel to Egypt and decipher hieroglyphs...

It’s less than 1000 miles from Cairo to Mecca. It isn’t unreasonable to posit that, during the fifteen centuries in which the title ‘pharaoh’ was used, word of the divine appointment of those particular kings could have filtered across that distance. In fact, it is UNreasonable to assert that not a single Egyptian made that journey (although a more likely scenario is that it happened in stages, over several generation).

Since it is at least plausible that the divinity of the pharaohs was known in Arabia by mundane means, claiming that the only way Mohammad could have known about it was via God seems, well, a little desperate.

At any rate, I’d be interested to see the verse in question.

Boru

[LadyForCamus]

You asked for an example of something in the Qur'an that Muhammad couldn't have gotten from local knowledge, the Paraoh's claim of divinity is a detail that is not in the Bible or even the apocrypha. You could of course claim Muhammad could travel to Egypt and decipher hieroglyphs...

It’s less than 1000 miles from Cairo to Mecca. It isn’t unreasonable to posit that, during the fifteen centuries in which the title ‘pharaoh’ was used, word of the divine appointment of those particular kings could have filtered across that distance. In fact, it is UNreasonable to assert that not a single Egyptian made that journey (although a more likely scenario is that it happened in stages, over several generation).

Since it is at least plausible that the divinity of the pharaohs was known in Arabia by mundane means, claiming that the only way Mohammad could have known about it was via God seems, well, a little desperate.

At any rate, I’d be interested to see the verse in question.

Boru

Not to mention the silly double-speak of claiming “there’s no way anyone could have possibly known anything true or factual about the Egyptians through mundane pathways,” while out the other side of his mouth propping up two-thousand-year-old oral tradition as a completely reliable method of communication that is delivering us facts and truth about a god; that we’re being irrational in our doubt. Help me out because I’m no historian; did the Egyptians not speak or write things down?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It’s less than 1000 miles from Cairo to Mecca. It isn’t unreasonable to posit that, during the fifteen centuries in which the title ‘pharaoh’ was used, word of the divine appointment of those particular kings could have filtered across that distance. In fact, it is UNreasonable to assert that not a single Egyptian made that journey (although a more likely scenario is that it happened in stages, over several generation).

Since it is at least plausible that the divinity of the pharaohs was known in Arabia by mundane means, claiming that the only way Mohammad could have known about it was via God seems, well, a little desperate.

At any rate, I’d be interested to see the verse in question.

Boru

Not to mention the silly double-speak of claiming “there’s no way anyone could have possibly known anything true or factual about the Egyptians through mundane pathways,” while out the other side of his mouth propping up two-thousand-year-old oral tradition as a completely reliable method of communication that is delivering us facts and truth about a god; that we’re being irrational in our doubt. Help me out because I’m no historian; did the Egyptians not speak or write things down?

Not only did they speak and write things down, they traded with other people, some of whom no doubt spoke Egyptian. When people interact, things like stories, current events and religious beliefs get passed around. Egypt’s trading partners certainly traded further afield, spread cultural tidbits along with their profits. And so on and so on. 

Of course, none of this proves that Mohammed didn’t get his pharaonic knowledge directly from God - it just makes it the (much) less likely hypothesis.

Boru

[Silver]

Mental gymnastics, a theistic Olympic sport.

[Angrboda]

You don't have complete knowledge of what Muhammed's local sources were. As a result, any argument that he didn't have local sources becomes an argument from ignorance (I don't know his source, therefore he had no source). As such, the argument is necessarily invalid, making any attempt to prove divine influence this way unsuccessful; a dead end.

[The Grand Nudger]

Egyptian potentates claim to divinity is as old as egypt. It wasn't a secret - they advertised. What do you think all those monuments were about?

Big Mo "agrees with the bible" - a bit-........because big mo cribbed notes from abrahamism.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Egyptian potentates claim to divinity is as old as egypt.  It wasn't a secret - they advertised.  What do you think all those monuments were about?

Big Mo "agrees with the bible" - a bit-........because big mo cribbed notes from abrahamism.

And there's no reason to suspect he didn't embellish the stories a bit, in exactly the manner that Khloro points out. The fact that one of those embellishments turned out to be correct could be cultural diffusion or a lucky guess.

Boru

[R00tKiT]

@Klorophyll

I’ll come to my point. If the Bible contains at least some historically accurate information about Egypt and Egyptian Pharaohs; and from what I’ve read, it does; then there’s no reason to think with such incredulity that some pieces of accurate Egyptian history could have made its way into the Quran. How did it get there? The same way it likely got into the Bible. The Bible got some stuff right. The Quran got some stuff right. Not necessarily the same stuff, but so what? That’s expected under the circumstances. If anything, the fact that both books contain accurate content regarding Egypt refutes your argument that the only way anyone alive at the time could have gleaned that specific information was via divine revelation.

Btw, I’m not well-versed on the historicity of either text, so if I’m missing something here, someone please educate me. Or is this really as silly as it seems?

The Bible contains true and false stuff about ancient prophets and other figures. The Qur'an takes the true stuff of the Bible with other extra biblical details that turn out to be true. Even if we fully accept that all the information about egyptian pharaohs was available at Muhammad's time by some means, this still doesn't explain why he picks the true bits, what we would expect from a man made quran is to contain widespread myths about the pharaohs that were later debunked.

It’s less than 1000 miles from Cairo to Mecca. It isn’t unreasonable to posit that, during the fifteen centuries in which the title ‘pharaoh’ was used, word of the divine appointment of those particular kings could have filtered across that distance. In fact, it is UNreasonable to assert that not a single Egyptian made that journey (although a more likely scenario is that it happened in stages, over several generation).

Since it is at least plausible that the divinity of the pharaohs was known in Arabia by mundane means, claiming that the only way Mohammad could have known about it was via God seems, well, a little desperate.

At any rate, I’d be interested to see the verse in question.

Boru

Here's the verse you're asking for:

Has the story of Moses reached thee? Behold, thy Lord did call to him in the sacred valley of Tuwa, "Go thou to Pharaoh for he has indeed transgressed all bounds: And say to him, ‘Wouldst thou that thou shouldst be purified (from sin)? - And that I guide thee to thy Lord, so thou shouldst fear Him?'" Then did (Moses) show him the Great Sign. But (Pharaoh) rejected it and disobeyed (guidance); Further, he turned his back, striving hard (against God). Then he collected (his men) and made a proclamation, Saying, "I am your Lord, Most High". [Qur'an 79:15-24]

and another one :

Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs! no god do I know for you but myself  [Qur'an 28:38]

---

Egyptian potentates claim to divinity is as old as egypt.  It wasn't a secret - they advertised.  What do you think all those monuments were about?

Big Mo "agrees with the bible" - a bit-........because big mo cribbed notes from abrahamism.

And there's no reason to suspect he didn't embellish the stories a bit, in exactly the manner that Khloro points out. The fact that one of those embellishments turned out to be correct could be cultural diffusion or a lucky guess.

Boru

If we start explaining these things by lucky guesses, then we are erring on the side of irrationality. But sure, you can always take this way out, the Qur'an is a collection of guesses that are all true because Muhammad was lucky.

[LadyForCamus]

@Klorophyll

Whether intentional or not, you appear to be missing the obvious point. How did the Bible get stuff right about Egypt?

[Mercyvessel]

Why would you make that assumption?

Even if you had evidence of such a Creator telling us that they're good and intend good for us, what evidence do you have of that actually being true?

Don't we all enjoy all the nutritious food that comes from creation (milk and meat from cows/herbivores, honey from bees, eggs from chickens, fish from the sea, grain/bread/fruits from the earth, etc, etc)?
Don't we enjoy the weather - particularly on vacation and/or during the/this summer season?
Don't we enjoy and appreciate the support or company of other created beings (family, friends) particularly in adversity? No human being can be "an island" unto themselves!

The problems of a fallen world/cursed Earth (for sin) notwithstanding - there is still much beauty in creation (before the end of the age); it all continues only by The Almighty!  

Beyond what we all enjoy on a daily basis... GOD, because He is truly "gracious and full of compassion, Slow to anger and great in mercy." - Psalm 145:8 purposed to save the souls of many from the detrimental requirement of the law for sin (particularly death of the soul/ the "second death") - this at Personal sacrifice to Himself in the Person of the Word - the Lord JESUS, The CHRIST; standing in as the Substitute for many. 

"Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends." - John 15:13

How much more selfless or benevolent can One be??

Denial of all this does not change the fact that GOD has said that He is good, and He evidently displays the same to all the world! I can personally attest to His goodness in many evident respects.

People don't realize that we live and breathe everyday by GOD's mercies... so it is good to be grateful, not unbelieving and ungrateful for pride's sake, etc! That is error!

GOD "makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45

Make no mistake - nothing else occurring around us withstanding - The LORD reigns, and power belongs unto GOD!

+++

"because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." - Romans 1:21

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time" - 1 Peter 5:6

"Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near." - Isaiah 55:6