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Who was Jesus?
RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 21, 2021 at 11:08 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(August 21, 2021 at 10:54 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: He did say not to care about stuff, and his followers were communists ... they did share everything. 
The definition of a socialist being someone who confiscates yer stuff, is only for Republicans.
The followers of Jesus.......were Communists. 2,000 years ago. Dude, come ON.

Acts 4:32-35. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Looks like they lived as real communists ... commune - ists, 2000 years ago. 
How is it you people know nothing of your own history ? 
The monastic communities lived as communists, and still do. 
Maybe you could buy a clue. 
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn
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RE: Who was Jesus?
Sounds more like a tent revival scamming granny out of her social security check and deed, than a commune, to me.
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RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 22, 2021 at 8:20 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(August 21, 2021 at 11:08 pm)Ahriman Wrote: The followers of Jesus.......were Communists. 2,000 years ago. Dude, come ON.

Acts 4:32-35. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Looks like they lived as real communists ... commune - ists, 2000 years ago. 
How is it you people know nothing of your own history ? 
The monastic communities lived as communists, and still do. 
Maybe you could buy a clue. 

I've always been struck by Christians' opposition to socialism/love of capitalism. You have that passage in Acts, you have the camel-needle thing from Jesus, and (just in case there were any doubts) in James you find:

James 5 Wrote:Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

I mean, it sounds like a total condemnation of economic exploitation to me. If failing to pay the workers who mow your fields is a damnable sin, why aren't more Christians socialists of some kind?

My theory: Christianity was hijacked by nationalistic forces, and it is more beholden to them than even their special book!
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RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 18, 2021 at 12:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 11:54 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I actually forgot that Ehrman thinks there was a historical Jesus.

The point I was making was, there are so many layers of obscurity, why even bother? And that applies to the historical Jesus and the legendary Jesus.

Exactly. There’s about as much chance of proving an historical Jesus by reading the Gospels as there is of proving an historical King Arthur by watching the musical ‘Camelot’.

Boru

Though you will get more entertainment and moral instruction from watching Camelot. So, a much more fruitful endeavour than reading the bible.

(August 18, 2021 at 3:50 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(August 18, 2021 at 3:33 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Of course it's ALL bullshit. 

But it does to Christians. It's in the creeds. And getting it there was no simple matter. 
They fought over it for decades, if not centuries .... which is one of the reasons why, ... when you read in a gospel or some other "early" writing, that Jesus was literally the son of god,
you know that at the very least, the text was edited or redacted LATER, as the theological concept had not developed until late.  
If you read the proceedings of the councils they fought a LOT about it. 
You can literally read ("watch") as they (humans ... all men of course) cook up their theology in the proceedings of the Councils (you can find them on Fordham's website).
The "filioque procedit" clause is part of the dispute between the various Christianities. 
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/ent...0the%20Son.
No, it really isn't all bullshit. It doesn't matter if Jesus was literally God's Son or not, what matters is the fact that someone was trying to teach humanity a better way of living, and gladly received (unjust) punishment for these teachings. Jesus was a class act, and it doesn't matter if not everything it says about Him in the Bible, is true. What's important, is that He was, and still is, an invaluable friend of Man, ever-willing to comfort us in times of trouble, and extend His Hand to the poor and needy......not just the financially poor and needy, but the spiritually poor and needy, as well.

If there was a real Yeshua, he wasn't trying to teach the world a better way of living. If the earliest gospel writings are historical, he was an ultra-observant jew (we'd call him ultra-orthodox in today's world) trying to make the people of Iudaea more religiously observant jews.

Christianity came much later and was built mainly to shore up the power of a temporal empire.
As a species, we are fucked. To the next generation, I offer my inadequate apologies.
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RE: Who was Jesus?
(August 25, 2021 at 2:18 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(August 22, 2021 at 8:20 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Acts 4:32-35. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Looks like they lived as real communists ... commune - ists, 2000 years ago. 
How is it you people know nothing of your own history ? 
The monastic communities lived as communists, and still do. 
Maybe you could buy a clue. 

I've always been struck by Christians' opposition to socialism/love of capitalism. You have that passage in Acts, you have the camel-needle thing from Jesus, and (just in case there were any doubts) in James you find:

James 5 Wrote:Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

I mean, it sounds like a total condemnation of economic exploitation to me. If failing to pay the workers who mow your fields is a damnable sin, why aren't more Christians socialists of some kind?

My theory: Christianity was hijacked by nationalistic forces, and it is more beholden to them than even their special book!

Constantine knew that the Greeks had used religion to unify their empire. He knew that Artaxerxes had used religion to unify the Jews when he sent some back to serve as a buffer-state between him and the invading Greeks. Later, Arabs used their newly minted religion to unify a far-flung Arab empire. When he called the Council of Nicaea, he told the squabbling sects of Christians, he didn't care what they agreed on as orthodoxy, but they better agree on "something". He wanted to use Christianity to unify his empire. It was a nifty trick if one could get it done.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn
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