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Favorite US President
#31
RE: Favorite US President
Lincoln liked to tell the story (almost certainly untrue) of George Washington and the privy. It runs something like this:

After the War, Ethan Allen was in England on business and was invited to dinner at a manor house. At one point during the evening, Allen expressed a desire to use the facilities and was directed to them. The only decoration in the 'littlest room' was a portrait of George Washington. Upon returning the dining hall, Allen made no mention of the picture. Eventually, his host asked Allen if he'd seen it. He had. His host then asked if Allen thought that the portrait was in an appropriate place. Allen said it was. His astonished host said, 'Appropriate? George Washington's likeness in a water closet?'

'It is where it will serve best,' answered Allen, 'for as the whole world knows, nothing will make an Englishman shit quicker than the sight of General Washington.'

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#32
RE: Favorite US President
I didn't think Boru was presenting Washington negatively, btw.

In my previous post, what I meant by "I give Washington the benefit of the doubt" was, I don't think he wanted to be king. ie. he was opposed to monarchy in America. Even if it was him. I think Boru knows this and was just clarifying his own point. But I'm clarifying too.
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#33
RE: Favorite US President
(August 29, 2021 at 9:50 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(August 29, 2021 at 6:49 pm)Spongebob Wrote: When did this supposedly happen?

Wikipedia -- Newburgh letter

Now, what would have Donald Trump done?

OK, I didn't know about this letter but I was aware that some people wanted Washington to become king.  I'm not sure this constitutes and actual coup, given that only a rough form of government existed at the time, but that's a matter of debate I suppose.  What would Trump have done?  Well, nothing.  He would have already been king.  He would have declared himself king long before and possibly even ruler of all the Americas.  Of course he wouldn't have endangered himself in the war; we know that for sure.

(August 30, 2021 at 1:19 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't think I have a favorite president.  Am I supposed to have one?

I don't think you are supposed to have a favorite president.  I happen to but it isn't necessary.  I do enjoy discussing the topic and learning more about presidents.

Whoever mentioned Jefferson, I will give a big kudos there as well.  Certainly there's the slave children issue but aside from that, TJ was an extraordinary man with a strong appetite for knowledge.  I appreciate his many pursuits and his tendency to catalog information.  The fact that he enslaved his own children...that's pretty terrible.  And from what we know, these children and their mother were quite light skinned, enough so to allow them to live in white society after his death.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#34
RE: Favorite US President
(August 29, 2021 at 8:57 am)Spongebob Wrote:
(August 29, 2021 at 4:56 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Barack Obama.   He represents american presidency’s only excursion into making the vaguest actual attempt at an hesitant movement in the very approximate direction of the destination it always pretended to have largely arrived at right near its beginning.

This excursion was one which, incidentally, the American presidency effectively took pains to repudiate as soon as it could.

That explains why you approved of Obama being elected but it doesn't explain why you liked him in particular.  Was there anything about the man or how he did the job that commanded your respect?

Yes, he tried and failed to meet contemporary American standard of suck.
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#35
RE: Favorite US President
(August 29, 2021 at 8:57 am)Spongebob Wrote:
(August 29, 2021 at 4:56 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Barack Obama.   He represents american presidency’s only excursion into making the vaguest actual attempt at an hesitant movement in the very approximate direction of the destination it always pretended to have largely arrived at right near its beginning.

This excursion was one which, incidentally, the American presidency effectively took pains to repudiate as soon as it could.

That explains why you approved of Obama being elected but it doesn't explain why you liked him in particular.  Was there anything about the man or how he did the job that commanded your respect?

he was given 2 chances but he failed miserably each time to rise up to the 21st century american standard of political hypocrisy, craven partisanship, and indifference to structural health of national institutions.

He might be last excuse posterity looking back on american history might find for investing in the deflection of an asteroid headed towards DC.

but seriously, he stands a decent chance of being seen as the “last good president” of a presidential republic that has been in decline since 1964, and whose rate of decline has accelerated in the 21st century.
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#36
RE: Favorite US President
(August 30, 2021 at 2:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(August 30, 2021 at 1:29 pm)Jehanne Wrote: You're joking, right?

Not at all. The letter was written, sent and received before the end of the revolutionary war.

A coup is an attempt to seize power from a legitimate governing authority. By any sensible standard, a revolution is simply a successful coup.

Boru

obviously the legitimacy of the governing authority depends on who one asks.   one does not rebel if one thinks the authority is governing legitimately, or is legitimate in any other important sense.    So I think the key here is what was George washington’s own perception of what legitimate governing authority he operated under just before the possibility of his being crowned king is raised, and in view of that perception whether his conduct after that was raised would be praise worthy.
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#37
RE: Favorite US President
(September 1, 2021 at 2:56 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:
(August 30, 2021 at 2:20 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Not at all. The letter was written, sent and received before the end of the revolutionary war.

A coup is an attempt to seize power from a legitimate governing authority. By any sensible standard, a revolution is simply a successful coup.

Boru

obviously the legitimacy of the governing authority depends on who one asks.   one does not rebel if one thinks the authority is governing legitimately, or is legitimate in any other important sense.    So I think the key here is what was George washington’s own perception of what legitimate governing authority he operated under just before the possibility of his being crowned king is raised, and in view of that perception whether his conduct after that was raised would be praise worthy.

The colonists who supported rebellion never questioned whether George III was a legitimate authority, just that he was going about it arse upwards.

And Washington’s (or anyone else’s) perception of a governing authority does not alter the legitimacy of that authority.


Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#38
RE: Favorite US President
(September 1, 2021 at 8:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(September 1, 2021 at 2:56 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: obviously the legitimacy of the governing authority depends on who one asks.   one does not rebel if one thinks the authority is governing legitimately, or is legitimate in any other important sense.    So I think the key here is what was George washington’s own perception of what legitimate governing authority he operated under just before the possibility of his being crowned king is raised, and in view of that perception whether his conduct after that was raised would be praise worthy.

The colonists who supported rebellion never questioned whether George III was a legitimate authority, just that he was going about it arse upwards.

And Washington’s (or anyone else’s) perception of a governing authority does not alter the legitimacy of that authority.


Boru

The declaration of independence signed on july 4 1776 renounced any recognition of sovereignty  of george III.  Washington affirmed his agreement with renunciation of Hanoverian sovereignty by  reading the declaration to his army on july 9.  The much larger number who subsequently acted under the authority of the congress of confederation arising out of the signing of declaration of independence also de facto no longer recognize Hanoverian monarchy’s sovereignty.  These would include washington’s army, and those who would make him king.
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#39
RE: Favorite US President
Does it matter?
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#40
RE: Favorite US President
(September 2, 2021 at 9:08 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:
(September 1, 2021 at 8:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The colonists who supported rebellion never questioned whether George III was a legitimate authority, just that he was going about it arse upwards.

And Washington’s (or anyone else’s) perception of a governing authority does not alter the legitimacy of that authority.


Boru

The declaration of independence signed on july 4 1776 renounced any recognition of sovereignty  of george III.  Washington affirmed his agreement with renunciation of Hanoverian sovereignty by  reading the declaration to his army on july 9.  The much larger number who subsequently acted under the authority of the congress of confederation arising out of the signing of declaration of independence also de facto no longer recognize Hanoverian monarchy’s sovereignty.  These would include washington’s army, and those who would make him king.

You’re equating legitimacy with sovereignty, and (in the case of the colonists’ rejection of George III) conflating them both with bad governance.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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