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New economy
#1
New economy
No idea where this thread belongs.  

Much has been said about the best kind of society to have and capitalism is clearly the most popular.  But capitalism has immense flaws as well.  We may be somewhat safe for now but future generations will face the treat of limited resources.  And limited resources leads to poverty and oppression.  Only a stable population can hope to resolve this, but population growth has generally been the engine from which capitalist nations build wealth.  Oh, there will likely be innovation, but innovation only seems to move us from one resource to another.  From trees to whale oil to fossil fuels to lithium, the carousel continues to spin.  Humans certainly live more comfortable lives now but we still face massive problems in pollution, resource depletion, wealth disparity, unhappy work lives and so on.  Is it even possible to reinvent society and economics in such a way that it does not rely on growth for prosperity?
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#2
RE: New economy
I don't think so. Would it really be surprising if the prosperity of a living creature fundamentally depended on growth of some kind?

The trick is learning to lean in. Lean into what we are, lean into growth. Growth doesn't have to be filthy word.

In my perfect future, there are too many of us to fit onto just one rock, and too many plants (all grown to feed us) to fit on just one rock, and too much product to sell on just one rock. We probably won't get a second rock any time soon..... but imagine an earth overflowing with labor and products in the meantime, and wonder again about all of those evils of capitalism that might not seem so pressing in that case. I get that at some point it's self defeating by some metrics - we're imagining a world of poor people (because there's alot of everything for sale and so not alot of wealth or prosperity for any given seller)...who need for nothing but may (absolutely) still want very much.

I'd take it - is all I'm saying.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#3
RE: New economy
(January 19, 2022 at 3:56 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think so.  Would it really be surprising if the prosperity of a living creature fundamentally depended on growth of some kind?
Well, to be fair, I'm set for life and haven't grown much, in any meaningful capacity, in a long time. So maybe the economy could be the same way?
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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#4
RE: New economy
If you've stopped growing, then you've hit peak productivity. At this point, there need to be people to support you, so the pop will have to grow commensurate to your need to remain level as you crater off.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#5
RE: New economy
Soylent Green. I don't think my great grandkids will mind long pork.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#6
RE: New economy
Heres some napkin math to demonstrate - using human numbers. A brutally efficient method of raising grain allows one person to farm 1/4 acre (roughly 100ftx100ft)and support 4 people on that tiny acreage. That's 3 in excess, but one is his child and one is his parent at any given time, again, to remain level (or one is his young self one is his current self and one is his geriatric self) - so the margin of excess is 1/4 of 1/4 an acre per productive person with hand tools. That's why it commonly took two parents to raise enough grain for two kids...for ten thousand years.........

Understanding this, you might see why prosperity and growth go hand in hand.

(January 19, 2022 at 4:16 pm)brewer Wrote: Soylent Green. I don't think my great grandkids will mind long pork.

You'd have to grow alot more non people than there are people to feed non people to people (and we already do).  Growth as a necessity strikes again.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#7
RE: New economy
(January 19, 2022 at 3:56 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think so.  Would it really be surprising if the prosperity of a living creature fundamentally depended on growth of some kind?

The trick is learning to lean in.  Lean into what we are, lean into growth.  Growth doesn't have to be filthy word.

In my perfect future, there are too many of us to fit onto just one rock, and too many plants (all grown to feed us) to fit on just one rock, and too much product to sell on just one rock.  We probably won't get a second rock any time soon..... but imagine an earth overflowing with labor and products in the meantime, and wonder again about all of those evils of capitalism that might not seem so pressing in that case.  I get that at some point it's self defeating by some metrics - we're imagining a world of poor people (because there's alot of everything for sale and so not alot of wealth or prosperity for any given seller)...who need for nothing but may (absolutely) still want very much.

I'd take it - is all I'm saying.

That's the optimist futurist view and its possible if we crack the right energy source.  There's also the pessimist futurist view, which also includes growth beyond our plant, but results in far greater numbers of humans (and possibly other species) living in oppression.  Spreading from a small area of the earth to encompass the entire planet didn't solve this, so I doubt expanding outward on a galactic scope will do any better.  Of course this future is faaaaaaaaar away, farther than we can imagine.  We are likely several orders of magnitude farther from galactic exploration than Homer was from setting foot on the moon.

And don't forget the singularity futurist view, which suggests that we will likely attain the capability to digitize our brain patters first and cease all physical existence outside computers.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#8
RE: New economy
We don't need to crack any energy source to make that happen.  The process -is- an energy source, itself.  The trouble we have is not capitalism - but that we've erected barriers and gates to doing even that.  So much so that you think it's optimistic.  That's not a free market, but a controlled and limited market.

Food for thought.

If we figure out a way to digitize ourselves in my own lifetime, I'll pass. I have no interest in being the avatars I play - that would eliminate the point of the avatars in the first place. I'm extremely attached to being a biological entity in real space. I'll smile and wave as you all go off into the digital ether (and then pull the cord once you're well away to make room).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#9
RE: New economy
(January 19, 2022 at 4:31 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: We don't need to crack any energy source to make that happen.  The process -is- an energy source, itself.  The trouble we have is not capitalism - but that we've erected barriers and gates to doing even that.  So much so that you think it's optimistic.  That's not a free market, but a controlled and limited market.

Food for thought.

Ok, I see where you are coming from.  Actually, that's my real question here.  What could we do, what is possible, to transform our growth-dependent prosperity to something different, where growth is not required, but people can still find prosperity.  Right now, the only true prosperity engine that current humans understand is one in which some genius invents "great new something" and builds factories, hires workers and shippers.  Genius gets super rich, workers and shippers find some level of prosperity until "great new something" runs its course and withers.  Then we await the next genius.  Repeat cycle ad nauseum.  Of course it's not a singular invention but scores of them in a complex web, but still our prosperity is currently in the death grip of the innovation cycle.  And we can observe this throughout history.  Innovation used to take centuries, millennia even, during which time prosperity was stagnant.  Since the enlightenment we've enjoyed innovation and prosperity on a scale humans have never seen before.  But that isn't a given for future generations.


Quote:If we figure out a way to digitize ourselves in my own lifetime, I'll pass.  I have no interest in being the avatars I play - that would eliminate the point of the avatars in the first place.  I'm extremely attached to being a biological entity in real space.   I'll smile and wave as you all go off into the digital ether (and then pull the cord once you're well away to make room).

That's why that won't be an option.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
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#10
RE: New economy
(January 19, 2022 at 3:36 pm)Spongebob Wrote: No idea where this thread belongs.  

Much has been said about the best kind of society to have and capitalism is clearly the most popular.  But capitalism has immense flaws as well.  We may be somewhat safe for now but future generations will face the treat of limited resources.  And limited resources leads to poverty and oppression.  Only a stable population can hope to resolve this, but population growth has generally been the engine from which capitalist nations build wealth.  Oh, there will likely be innovation, but innovation only seems to move us from one resource to another.  From trees to whale oil to fossil fuels to lithium, the carousel continues to spin.  Humans certainly live more comfortable lives now but we still face massive problems in pollution, resource depletion, wealth disparity, unhappy work lives and so on.  Is it even possible to reinvent society and economics in such a way that it does not rely on growth for prosperity?

It's called communism, Comrade.
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