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The existence of God
#11
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 11:00 pm)Tomato Wrote:
(September 3, 2022 at 10:57 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Thanks for sparing us the multiverse speculations, altough this seems like a variation of it...the problem of why this particular universe exists and not some other remains nevertheless.

Well, yeah, because the concept of alternate dimensions is as imaginative as god's existence.

Of course, mathematical models exist that describe the multiverse.
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#12
RE: The existence of God
Maths models = academic numerology
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#13
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 9:27 pm)smithd Wrote: Your argument is that fine tuning is an illusion? There is a real case to be made that there is fine tuning though. If the physical parameters were different we may not even have atoms, let alone life. Why is the universe like that?

Perhaps there are universes like that, but if they were incapable of sustaining life there would be no one there talking about fine tuning. We're essentially in a bubble of perception that is made possible because of the way this universe is structured. Kind of like rolling double boxcars on a pair of dice - the odds are 1 in 36, but it does happen.
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#14
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 11:02 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(September 3, 2022 at 10:57 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: ..the problem of why this particular universe exists and not some other remains nevertheless.

It doesn't because you would have to demonstrate that some other universe could exist with other properties which you didn't.
Well said  Great
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

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 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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#15
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 11:29 pm)Tomato Wrote: Maths models = academic numerology

Yeah, those are speculations upon speculations because saying that some constant is unlikely is a scientifically meaningless statement.



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#16
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 6:52 pm)smithd Wrote: I'm a Christian looking to have a friendly conversation about the existence of God. I'd like to start with one of the Teleology arguments—that God exists based on how fine-tuned the universe is for life. For instance, physical constants, like the gravitational constant and constants of the strong nuclear force, must be within a narrow range to allow for things like atom formation, hydrogen bonding, galaxy formation, etc. This looks like design. The alternative is chance, which doesn't seem adequate. In other words, naturalism cannot account for the fine-tuning of the universe, while design can easily account for it. This is not a trivial problem, or one that can be ridiculed away, since many respected scientists have pointed out how remarkably (and inexplicably) fine-tuned the universe appears. Thanks for your polite responses.
Everyone believes in God's existence so it's futile to cozy up and tried to convince them of something they all ready know. What happened to them is this*
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*Romans 1:21    Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Atheist Credo: An universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
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#17
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 2:45 am)snowtracks Wrote: Everyone believes in God's existence......

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"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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#18
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 2:45 am)snowtracks Wrote: Everyone believes in God's existence...

I do not. Kindly do not bear false witness against me and other nonbelievers.
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#19
RE: The existence of God
99.999...% of the universe will kill us in seconds, too hot, too cold, vacuum, toxic atmosphere, high gravity, radiation... I don't see much of this fine tuning!
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

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#20
RE: The existence of God
(September 3, 2022 at 9:27 pm)smithd Wrote:
(September 3, 2022 at 7:54 pm)Astreja Wrote: There's a natural bias in the illusion of fine-tuning - only in a universe where the physical constants are within certain parameters, in a region of the universe where conditions are stable enough to permit evolution to the level of sentience, will such an observation occur.

Even if the universe was created by a god, though, it's a long, long slog to try to connect the dots to the god of Christianity.  Its behaviours in the Old Testament don't engender much confidence as to its competence to fine-tune anything, and its temperament doesn't suggest enough emotional stability to stick with it over the long haul.  Sorry.

Thanks for your reply. Fair enough that it doesn't connect to the Christian God. I just wanted to establish that fine tuning points to a designer of some sort. Your argument is that fine tuning is an illusion? There is a real case to be made that there is fine tuning though. If the physical parameters were different we may not even have atoms, let alone life. Why is the universe like that?

Fine tuning would point to a designer if it could be established that fine tuning exists. It can’t be, so it doesn’t.

Acting surprised at the existence of life in a universe that has the conditions for life is rather like walking into a clothing shop and being stunned at all the coats and trousers.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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