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The existence of God
#31
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 9:43 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(September 3, 2022 at 11:02 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: It doesn't because you would have to demonstrate that some other universe could exist with other properties which you didn't.

You are arguing against yourself. Thank you for making my point.

How so?  For instance, why does the gravitational force have to obey the inverse square law?  (Answer:  it doesn't; see MOND.)  But, if it did not obey this regular, repeatable and observable pattern, could sentient life have evolved over the last 13.8 billion years of the Universe's existence?  Answer:  probably not (but, again, see MOND.)

Problem with no multiverse is that we still live in an expanding Universe:

Wikipedia -- Observable Universe

Now, if our Universe is finite and expanding, but without a physical center, then it must be at least 5-dimensions (3 spatial dimensions plus time, the 4th, and the 5th, being some sort of hyperspace, namely, that which the Universe is expanding "into", unless it is "expanding" into nothing, in which "nothing" is something, namely, that which the Universe is expanding into.)

Can you comprehend the 5th dimension?  Can you comprehend a finite volume of space with no geometric and/or physical center?  I can't.  And, so, the multiverse just makes sense, that is, to say that the Cosmos is infinite in both space & time.  It gets rid of the problem of, "Out of nothing, nothing comes" and/or the "nothingness" into which the Universe is expanding into.
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#32
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 10:25 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(September 4, 2022 at 9:43 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: You are arguing against yourself. Thank you for making my point.

How so? 

Don't ask him because he doesn't know.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#33
RE: The existence of God
The comments in this thread reveal a grave misunderstanding of how arguments work in general. Fine-tuning points to a designer in so far as the designer hypothesis explains the data better than the naturalistic hypothesis. This is VERY DIFFERENT from saying that fine-tuning deductively entails God's existence, only ontological arguments attempt such a feat.

Now what an atheist can't argue against, is that life arising given God's existence is far more plausible than any competing hypothesis. Tinkering with the laws of physics and saying that they could've produced intelligent life under other circumstances isn't correct, because all the background knowledge used in the tinkering is inspired from the workings of this existing universe, in one way or another. So saying that, for example, the cosmological constant could've produced life if it had a different value, isn't an objection, because we're still borrowing the very concept of the cosmological constant and the related theory (GR and QM) from the existing universe.

Another common objection goes as follows : we need a universe that is designed by God, and a universe that isn't designed, so we can make the comparison, but this request already assumes that the universe arising without God is possible. question begging.

Imagine if an alien is presented with a computer chip and isn't convinced that intelligent life designed it, so he asks : show me a computer chip that isn't designed by humans, and one that is designed by humans, so that I can decide. Stupid, right?
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#34
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 12:46 pm)R00tKiT Wrote: Stupid, right?

It is stupid alright, like most of your posts.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#35
RE: The existence of God
Why do you think life arising due to gods existence is more plausible than life arising due to organic chemistry.

I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see organic chemistry giving rise to life all day every day to this very day.

You ever seen a pixie split a moon?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why do you think life arising due to gods existence is more plausible than life arising due to organic chemistry.

I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see organic chemistry giving rise to life all day every day to this very day.

You ever seen a pixie split a moon?
Or do anything ..... Dodgy
"Change was inevitable"


Nemo sicut deus debet esse!

[Image: Canada_Flag.jpg?v=1646203843]



 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#37
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 12:46 pm)R00tKiT Wrote: The comments in this thread reveal a grave misunderstanding of how arguments work in general. Fine-tuning points to a designer in so far as the designer hypothesis explains the data better than the naturalistic hypothesis. This is VERY DIFFERENT from saying that fine-tuning deductively entails God's existence, only ontological arguments attempt such a feat.

Now what an atheist can't argue against, is that life arising given God's existence is far more plausible than any competing hypothesis. Tinkering with the laws of physics and saying that they could've produced intelligent life under other circumstances isn't correct, because all the background knowledge used in the tinkering is inspired from the workings of this existing universe, in one way or another. So saying that, for example, the cosmological constant could've produced life if it had a different value, isn't an objection, because we're still borrowing the very concept of the cosmological constant and the related theory (GR and QM) from the existing universe.

Another common objection goes as follows : we need a universe that is designed by God, and a universe that isn't designed, so we can make the comparison, but this request already assumes that the universe arising without God is possible. question begging.

Imagine if an alien is presented with a computer chip and isn't convinced that intelligent life designed it, so he asks : show me a computer chip that isn't designed by humans, and one that is designed by humans, so that I can decide. Stupid, right?

The existence of God is not a testable, falsifiable hypothesis.
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#38
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why do you think life arising due to gods existence is more plausible than life arising due to organic chemistry.

That's not what I said, buddy. You are presenting us with a false dilemma (either theism or organic chemistry) and hoping someone will bite into it.

(September 4, 2022 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see organic chemistry giving rise to life all day every day to this very day.

I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see manufacturing plants giving rise to cars, airplanes, .. all day every day to this very day.
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#39
RE: The existence of God
(September 4, 2022 at 1:05 pm)R00tKiT Wrote:
(September 4, 2022 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why do you think life arising due to gods existence is more plausible than life arising due to organic chemistry.

That's not what I said, buddy. You are presenting us with a false dilemma (either theism or organic chemistry) and hoping someone will bite into it.

(September 4, 2022 at 12:51 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see organic chemistry giving rise to life all day every day to this very day.

I feel like this shouldn’t have to be pointed out…but, we see manufacturing plants giving rise to cars, airplanes, .. all day every day to this very day.

Yes, intelligent design exists, Us. Just compare artificial versus natural selection. Are you saying that God used natural selection to create the diversity of life that exists in our World today?
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#40
RE: The existence of God
I take it that you dont think, then, that organic chemistry is any less plausible an explanation for life than some god? I could come up with more if you like, obviously not limited to just those two.

Don’t you think that makes your previous claim a bit difficult to parse?

You’re right though, we do see factories pumping out machines. Do you expect to find a little baby biplane snuggled somewhere in the middle of a space shuttle? I don’t, and you won’t, and that’s one pretty obvious difference between designed things and organically derived things.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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