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A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
#1
A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
By/through the name of God....(all/the) praise is to God...
 
Why does it refute the argument of evil? The argument of evil seeks to impose an ideal image of what God should be and do with respect to his actions, which ultimately, would best reflect benign wisdom and loving grace.
 
Or it says, that if God was anywhere near goodness, he would not allow evil to exist or not allow suffering to the extent he has allowed.
 
This verse is saying something that must be true if God exists. That it is through God's Name that we would properly praise God, or else that we would not attribute all praise to him.
 
The name of God is obviously connected to God, so it makes no sense to say "the name of God" points to this concept, that the name of God somehow exists, and properly manifests what an ultimate being would be to a degree, that we have a reference to what an ultimate being would be, but that no such being exists.
 
It is insane to think we would know what ultimate greatness would be and how it would act, while there is no connection to it.
 
The argument of evil falls flat in that regard and becomes paradoxical.  It has no argument.
 
But let us go further. Does it refute atheism?
 
Let us begin with some reflections. What is a name? A name is just sounds or letters symbolizing sounds – but – it is how we remember people with an image.
 
In the case of God, is his image different then his name? Or is the word of light, also the face of his light?
 
The name of God is by which if God exists, we would recall the ultimate being.
What does the term “God” mean in Arabic? It means that which is worshipped.
When we value ourselves above all else, we are essentially saying we are more important then everything else. We think love inside our hearts should be most oriented towards ourselves.
When we love close family or friends just as much, that would be the highest value we give.
You cannot no matter how much you try to escape it or avoid the term, not worship. Humans value something higher on scale than most things, be it it whatever jokes may follow, sex, boobs, w/e.
To say you worship something is it say that you value things with degrees.
When God is not valued at highest degree such that everything really pales to that value and respect given to him not given at a much higher level then everything else, than it can be said we have multiple things we value at a very high level.
With most humans, it’s not that they don’t value God, it is just that they don’t value him enough to the extent they value other things or others or themselves as much or even more then God.
 
The name of “that which ought to be valued the most” in possibility worlds speaking, has to be a connection that makes us know what ought to be valued the most.
This is true regardless now if supernatural being exists or not.
It is true I am saying regardless if a spirit Creator exists or not. At this point. But I will be showing, the opposite as well. That now I say for sake of argument, it is true regardless if a spirit Eternal creator or not, only to show that it is essential a spirit Eternal Creator exists and is that being.
The regardless whether “God” exists, or not, that this is true, is because if you think about it,  there has to be something that ought to be valued the most at least by us as an individual objectively.
A person can say they are that person because they have control over, a mother may feel that is her baby because it depends on her to nourish it, etc, etc…
Whatever it is, something ought to be valued the most.
Now let us talk about what connects us to know and recall that thing?
All existing good conscious beings I would argue together including the most to be valued from them, are more important than just an individual from them (but would include that individual that ought to be valued most).
 
Now we can say “the need of the many ought weight that of a few” or something on those lines.
 
But what makes us KNOW this. 
 
So far we talked about quantity, but what about quality. What qualities would make an individual out of the collective the most one out of all individuals to be valued?
 
We can say I don’t know and we can’t know. But then we find ourselves still valuing something or someone more than others, and that we have degrees of value.
The measuring balance by which things should be valued, I argue, is that very thing which connects us to that thing which would be valued the most and makes us know it.
Without that measuring balance, we can’t value anything with right balanced measure, we become unbalanced in how we perceive people.
 
We maybe harshly judgmental or positively judgmental, but it maybe none of that is on truth.
I argue value has to be if there is something we ought to value the most, has to be based on truth. That truth has to be the eyes by which we measure it.
I also argue that truth is that name/connection/reference/sign/pointer/indication/image of that which ought to be valued the most.
 
But if we think about it, and we really we really think about it, can that which be valued the most be limited?
Since we said the true measurement is that name, it must indicate all measurements of all values possible.
But we know we can’t measure all scales and we don’t, so what does it mean?  IT means it is a like an arrow aimed at never reached sky, it realizes the endless boundary of value, that there is no limit of loving, valuing, and honoring, yet all this somehow connected to us, that we must measure by truth as argued before if we ought to value something more than others.
 
To say there exists nothing we ought to value the most, but rather, we simple choose what we want to value the most, I will argue is not possible.
I will argue when you value something more than others, you do so out of belief. You do so because you believe that thing ought to be valued, whether that belief is chaotic and stems from lust, or caprice, it doesn’t matter.
 
And there lies the issue. To believe there is a thing that ought to be valued the most is rational, and yet everyone would be ashamed to say “I am a god to myself” or “Hot women are my goal and gods…” etc….or “Money” or “Fame is one of my gods”.
Everyone knows truly there is but one thing worthy of being that which ought to be valued the most.
But the thought process doesn’t rely on the above line. I have shown logically and rationally, that.
1.      We are connected to refer to and know and recognize that which ought to be valued the most.
2.      That which ought to be valued the most is an unbounded limitless sky, which we can aim to head to, but will never reach.
3.      That name which connects us to it is the same eyes by which we have to judge by ourselves, and know ourselves through, as well as perceive others through if there is any truth to “valuing”.
There is MANY premises (these 3 are not initial premises, but what has been proven), and I thought numbering them and presenting them that way, but I have had bad experience with that.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

Reply
#2
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
(September 1, 2017 at 2:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: By/through the name of God....(all/the) praise is to God...
 
Why does it refute the argument of evil? The argument of evil seeks to impose an ideal image of what God should be and do with respect to his actions, which ultimately, would best reflect benign wisdom and loving grace.
 
Or it says, that if God was anywhere near goodness, he would not allow evil to exist or not allow suffering to the extent he has allowed.
 
This verse is saying something that must be true if God exists. That it is through God's Name that we would properly praise God, or else that we would not attribute all praise to him.
 
The name of God is obviously connected to God, so it makes no sense to say "the name of God" points to this concept, that the name of God somehow exists, and properly manifests what an ultimate being would be to a degree, that we have a reference to what an ultimate being would be, but that no such being exists.
 
It is insane to think we would know what ultimate greatness would be and how it would act, while there is no connection to it.
 
The argument of evil falls flat in that regard and becomes paradoxical.  It has no argument.
 
But let us go further. Does it refute atheism?
 
Let us begin with some reflections. What is a name? A name is just sounds or letters symbolizing sounds – but – it is how we remember people with an image.
 
In the case of God, is his image different then his name? Or is the word of light, also the face of his light?
 
The name of God is by which if God exists, we would recall the ultimate being.
What does the term “God” mean in Arabic? It means that which is worshipped.
When we value ourselves above all else, we are essentially saying we are more important then everything else. We think love inside our hearts should be most oriented towards ourselves.
When we love close family or friends just as much, that would be the highest value we give.
You cannot no matter how much you try to escape it or avoid the term, not worship. Humans value something higher on scale than most things, be it it whatever jokes may follow, sex, boobs, w/e.
To say you worship something is it say that you value things with degrees.
When God is not valued at highest degree such that everything really pales to that value and respect given to him not given at a much higher level then everything else, than it can be said we have multiple things we value at a very high level.
With most humans, it’s not that they don’t value God, it is just that they don’t value him enough to the extent they value other things or others or themselves as much or even more then God.
 
The name of “that which ought to be valued the most” in possibility worlds speaking, has to be a connection that makes us know what ought to be valued the most.
This is true regardless now if supernatural being exists or not.
It is true I am saying regardless if a spirit Creator exists or not. At this point. But I will be showing, the opposite as well. That now I say for sake of argument, it is true regardless if a spirit Eternal creator or not, only to show that it is essential a spirit Eternal Creator exists and is that being.
The regardless whether “God” exists, or not, that this is true, is because if you think about it,  there has to be something that ought to be valued the most at least by us as an individual objectively.
A person can say they are that person because they have control over, a mother may feel that is her baby because it depends on her to nourish it, etc, etc…
Whatever it is, something ought to be valued the most.
Now let us talk about what connects us to know and recall that thing?
All existing good conscious beings I would argue together including the most to be valued from them, are more important than just an individual from them (but would include that individual that ought to be valued most).
 
Now we can say “the need of the many ought weight that of a few” or something on those lines.
 
But what makes us KNOW this. 
 
So far we talked about quantity, but what about quality. What qualities would make an individual out of the collective the most one out of all individuals to be valued?
 
We can say I don’t know and we can’t know. But then we find ourselves still valuing something or someone more than others, and that we have degrees of value.
The measuring balance by which things should be valued, I argue, is that very thing which connects us to that thing which would be valued the most and makes us know it.
Without that measuring balance, we can’t value anything with right balanced measure, we become unbalanced in how we perceive people.
 
We maybe harshly judgmental or positively judgmental, but it maybe none of that is on truth.
I argue value has to be if there is something we ought to value the most, has to be based on truth. That truth has to be the eyes by which we measure it.
I also argue that truth is that name/connection/reference/sign/pointer/indication/image of that which ought to be valued the most.
 
But if we think about it, and we really we really think about it, can that which be valued the most be limited?
Since we said the true measurement is that name, it must indicate all measurements of all values possible.
But we know we can’t measure all scales and we don’t, so what does it mean?  IT means it is a like an arrow aimed at never reached sky, it realizes the endless boundary of value, that there is no limit of loving, valuing, and honoring, yet all this somehow connected to us, that we must measure by truth as argued before if we ought to value something more than others.
 
To say there exists nothing we ought to value the most, but rather, we simple choose what we want to value the most, I will argue is not possible.
I will argue when you value something more than others, you do so out of belief. You do so because you believe that thing ought to be valued, whether that belief is chaotic and stems from lust, or caprice, it doesn’t matter.
 
And there lies the issue. To believe there is a thing that ought to be valued the most is rational, and yet everyone would be ashamed to say “I am a god to myself” or “Hot women are my goal and gods…” etc….or “Money” or “Fame is one of my gods”.
Everyone knows truly there is but one thing worthy of being that which ought to be valued the most.
But the thought process doesn’t rely on the above line. I have shown logically and rationally, that.
1.      We are connected to refer to and know and recognize that which ought to be valued the most.
2.      That which ought to be valued the most is an unbounded limitless sky, which we can aim to head to, but will never reach.
3.      That name which connects us to it is the same eyes by which we have to judge by ourselves, and know ourselves through, as well as perceive others through if there is any truth to “valuing”.
There is MANY premises (these 3 are not initial premises, but what has been proven), and I thought numbering them and presenting them that way, but I have had bad experience with that.

Welcome back. Hope you are not as angst ridden as you seem to have been when you said you were leaving the last time. But we are not going to change our responses you have to accept that otherwise you are simply going to make yourself miserable. 

Oh and as far as this giant wall of text. Try this. Read it back to yourself and everywhere you put the word "God' replace it with "Jesus". The after you do that, read it back to yourself again and replace "God" with "Yahweh". Then do the same with Buddha and Vishnu and see if the same argument you just made still makes sense.
Reply
#3
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
Brian you speak for yourself.

Any Atheist can always accept the proofs Theists offer for God and accept the reminders that point to his existence. *smiles*

Number 1 rule of doubting, know when to stop doubting.

ps - Thanks for the welcome back.
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

Reply
#4
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
There was not an ounce of substance in that inane rant. Try again.
Religions were invented to impress and dupe illiterate, superstitious stone-age peasants. So in this modern, enlightened age of information, what's your excuse? Or are you saying with all your advantages, you were still tricked as easily as those early humans?

---

There is no better way to convey the least amount of information in the greatest amount of words than to try explaining your religious views.
Reply
#5
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
(September 1, 2017 at 3:31 pm)Astonished Wrote: There was not an ounce of substance in that inane rant. Try again.

And plenty of substance in your one liner. Don't try again. *smiles*
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

Reply
#6
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
(September 1, 2017 at 3:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Number 1 rule of doubting, know when to stop doubting.

I do know. The answer is "never."

Dear MysticKnight,

I completely missed the part where you said anything that suggests that an all powerful and all knowing God must not be evil if he allows evil to exist in the world. Going on and on about God's name, is irrelevant, going on about what the Koran says, is irrelevant. You have to deal with the logic that if an all powerful being is truly all powerful, and is also truly all knowing... then there is nothing stopping them from preventing evil if they are truly all powerful and truly all knowing. The fact they don't do so means they are not all good.

You haven't dealt with that logic, and you cannot, you have not, you can not, and you will not. Ever. Why? Because it's sound logic, the argument is complete. And it's an old argument that has never been defeated, too:

[Image: Qra3OPr.jpg]
Reply
#7
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
Yes, you completely missed it. But it's not my fault. *smiles*
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

Reply
#8
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
I missed it because... it wasn't there. You said nothing relevant.
Reply
#9
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
(September 1, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Hammy Wrote: I missed it because... it wasn't there.

Or is it because you never want to stop doubting. *smiles*
"….except those without power/capability - who do not find the means and find no guidance to the way, it maybe God will forgive these, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate." (in 4Th Surah).

Reply
#10
RE: A good argument for God's existence (long but worth it)
(September 1, 2017 at 3:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(September 1, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Hammy Wrote: I missed it because... it wasn't there.

Or is it because you never want to stop doubting. *smiles*

False dichotomy.

*smiles awkwardly*

[Image: sk3nfmE.gif]

I don't want to stop doubting because... I don't want to turn off the rational part of my brain, unlike yourself.
Reply



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