Free will and the necessary evil

[Mystical]

Just wondering if there was anyone who wanted to explain free will in reference to the existence of god and why suffering is a thing that exists for all eternity according to Christianity but god did it so its ok? I keep running into self proclaimed Christains who claim god "isnt like that" and they don't believe in Hell.
Isn't that like having your cake and eating it too? There's an entire book dedicated to it in the New Testament after all..

May not be a new topic for you but I want to refresh my memory on the subject with anyone (within reason) whose interested.

[Angrboda]

Just wondering if there was anyone who wanted to explain free will in reference to the existence of god and why suffering is a thing that exists for all eternity according to Christianity but god did it so its ok? I keep running into self proclaimed Christains who claim god "isnt like that" and they don't believe in Hell.
Isn't that like having your cake and eating it too? There's an entire book dedicated to it in the New Testament after all..

May not be a new topic for you but I want to refresh my memory on the subject with anyone (within reason) whose interested.

The traditional explanation is that we are deserving of such punishment, but that God may choose to lift us out of that state by an act of grace. Supposedly we are incapable of being good.

There is also the doctrine of universalism, that no one will be sent to hell.

[LinuxGal]

Just wondering if there was anyone who wanted to explain free will in reference to the existence of god and why suffering is a thing that exists for all eternity according to Christianity but god did it so its ok? I keep running into self proclaimed Christains who claim god "isnt like that" and they don't believe in Hell.
Isn't that like having your cake and eating it too? There's an entire book dedicated to it in the New Testament after all..

May not be a new topic for you but I want to refresh my memory on the subject with anyone (within reason) whose interested.

There is no free will according to Paul.

Romans 9

[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Prooftexting are we, now?

"You see it's all clear,
You were meant to be here...
...from the beginning."

Oh, wait that's ELP, not scrpture. Never mind.

[The Grand Nudger]

 I keep running into self proclaimed Christains who claim god "isnt like that" and they don't believe in Hell.

Contemporary secularization, it hasn't just worked on atheists...or even on atheists the most.  Christianity is in flux, the nature of god itself is in flux - ever was it thus. The underlying question isn't whether or why christians do or can believe something despite text or tradition, that's never not been the case...but, whether there's a successful revision of the theology that can reverse it's death spiral. The vast acceptance of jesus-as a populist wise man, even among atheists, shows that society is primed - but how does christianity cross the line and turn this unfortunate shaman back into a god or a symbol of the divine for a contemporary audience?

[ayost]

Hey buddy. Can you expound on that a little? I think these are interesting topics, but the relationship between free will, suffering, and the eternality of God's wrath is not obvious to me just from the question. But I am really curious about what exactly you're asking.

[The Grand Nudger]

Not sure if that was directed at me or the OP. If it was for me, I'd say I agree - that the relationship between free will, suffering, and the eternality of god's wrath is not obvious, not just from the question - but in general - and that peoples changing ideas about all of this demonstrate as much even if we limit ourselves to the demographics of the faithful alone.

Outside of that demo, these things are not only not obvious - but some positions on the matter are abhorrent and a barrier to assumption. In some cases so abhorrent that it's the cause of a person moving from the one demo to the other. So, clearly, this is a problem that christianity (and many other religions, really) need to solve if the belief sets are to have any chance at a future. If only to stem the loss, to say nothing of the perpetual growth required to maintain in the face of a zero sum conversion game between sympathetic belief sets and demos.

The theological field is littered with an endless procession of dead gods. The christian god is not immune to this, and, in the wider view of things, is a baby at risk of blipping out before it fully matures. There are gods which we're still aware of, still know the names of, and which people still believe in, that are three times older (or more) than the christian god. So...it can be done, but, for the most part, that's not the way that history has panned out for the majority of gods. What do we think christianity or christians can or might do, in order that their god doesn't suffer the fate of so many others?

(and just to make things simpler, I'm aware that there are things in the above that a believing person might want to object to on the groundsa of their faith - like the idea that their god can die - but keep in mind that I'm speaking from the pov as a person who does not believe and describing the situation for the movements and religions - so, there's no need to bicker about that - as a god may be eternal, but..if so, then it's possible for a god to be perpetually existent and forgotten, alone and un-worshipped, due to the failure of it's religion to persist in the face of changing susceptibility, mores, and beliefs in societies at large)

[Ahriman]

Just wondering if there was anyone who wanted to explain free will in reference to the existence of god and why suffering is a thing that exists for all eternity according to Christianity but god did it so its ok? I keep running into self proclaimed Christains who claim god "isnt like that" and they don't believe in Hell.
Isn't that like having your cake and eating it too? There's an entire book dedicated to it in the New Testament after all..

May not be a new topic for you but I want to refresh my memory on the subject with anyone (within reason) whose interested.

I don't know about suffering in Hell, or how/why it would be worse than suffering in this life, but in terms of suffering in this life, God probably figured it was better for humans to suffer and exist than not suffer and not exist, by which I mean, suffering might have been an essential ingredient when creating humanity.

[The Grand Nudger]

So much for this gods great abilities.

[LinuxGal]

I don't know about suffering in Hell, or how/why it would be worse than suffering in this life, but in terms of suffering in this life, God probably figured it was better for humans to suffer and exist than not suffer and not exist, by which I mean, suffering might have been an essential ingredient when creating humanity.

If God had to make an engineering compromise just to get humans to live he sounds more like an alien from an advanced civilization than the creator of reality itself.