New Controversies around the Desecration of the Quran

[Leonardo17]

  One of the main things we seemed to have in the past but seem to have completely lost today is religious leadership.
 

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I don’t know how it worked in other religions, but if there is religious tension between two different religious groups, I won’t expect ordinary people to act rationally. Some of them may have the brains to try to pacify the situation, others may be more impulsive so a mob is always a mob. But if there is a priest or other religious figure in that location, I definitely expect them to be aware of the message of peace of their religion and to be able to bring their mobs back to reason. Because otherwise that’s not a “man of religion” by definition. It’s the opposite actually.
 
Today, it’s the preachers themselves who will fire-up the mobs and incite them to do all sorts of nonsense. So here is two examples One from today’s Pakistan, the second from 1993 / Turkey:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mob-burns-pak...35591.html
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre
 
Because of this, in today’s conditions it is widely accepted that adherence to a religious dogma may actually obstruct spiritual growth instead of promoting it.
 
For this reason, many scholars who happen to be a part of the religion of Islam have been saying for decades that we are allowed to carry out our religious practice in a totally individualized manner (alone in the privacy of our homes) if we want to. And I know this from personal experience too. Our preachers here have the habit of making medium length speeches in Friday prayers and in some other occasions. I cannot say that I like and/or approve of everything they say at every time. I cannot generalize on that. We still have very knowledgeable and sincere preachers too. But in one instance (Just before the election in May 14th) we even had a preacher who was calling for rebellion and mass murder in case the secular opposition was to win the elections.
 
So the Harsh reality is: The time of trusting some patriarchal figure for guidance and direction is over. And I don’t see this as a bad thing. With all the technological / social possibilities of our time (improved access to all sorts of written, spoken of video materials combined with a level of education – for the most of us – that allows us to discriminate and make intelligent choices among all these materials) why would anyone just trust one guy anyway?
 
In this respect, my religion is full of reminders like “Trust the word of knowledgeable people” (people who are experts in their areas) or “Don’t you evet use your reason?” (Don’t you ever try to measure things with your own intelligence?).
 
So in today’s world, this type of mob activity should be criminalized. There is a French sociologist called Gustave Le Bon who worked in these issues in his book “Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind”.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crowd:...pular_Mind
 
My conclusion from that very interesting book is: You cannot / should not be decriminalized simply because you did something collectively while being a part of a group of individuals or mob. SO in the Pakistan example above (or very similar events that seem to have increased a lot under the government of the populist leader Modi) these guys have to be punished one by one for their acts of vandalism.
 
Also, we don’t just hate churches or synagogues because we are Muslims. Personally, I did pray in Christian sacred places and did even receive blessings from Sikh or Hindu religious figures when I travelled to India. So lash those guys for me please
 

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[Leonardo17]

OFC the fact that theyre not christians or atheists doesn't make them muslim?  Being a fucking muslim makes them muslims.  You can't have islamists without islam.  

You're not wrong about that ending though.  Here in the us - which is mostly empty churches...so I don't know how tied we still are to our religions, even when we profess them.....in order to escape minority irrelevance, and secure perpetual minority rule, the religionists -did- decide to band together and stop publicly bickering with each other.  They have their book burnings and their cd stompings and it's all so very holy...holy...holy.  The xenophobes have gone through a similar process.  You know, when it even makes sense to separate the two as distinct groups.....  White nationalism is one of the places that actually brings atheists and theists together as a single moral community.  They fish too.

We let them do it, we laugh at them for doing it.  I see no reason to do to them what I would not do to you.  This idea that you have that there should be legal consequences.  We used to think that too, we had flag codes.  Obviously, we've left that behind.  If you really dove in, you'd probably find more actionable content in their actual speech then you would in their burning a magic book, or burning a flag.  We're permissive here, too...notoriously permissive, with respect to western countries.  Do you think the us government should change in that regard - and resume prosecuting people for bad speech...whether thats with their mouth or with a lighter?

 
- I agree that you are right on this in your own way. My argument is that the world is rapidly changing. My view on that is that Islam means that you are surrendering you very Ego to God and that’s the essence of the entire teaching. And there are those of us who truly live and define the whole issue in that manner. And I think of this “us” as being radically different from “them”.
 

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But one of the key things we will keep witnessing in this century is that those guys (I am also adding people like anti-abortionists etc. in that group) are going to be increasingly more extreme and more dogmatic in their behavior while the “us” part is going to become increasingly more spiritual with a more different way of doing things.
 
And I think this is already very visible right now. One version of Islam is totally humanistic, modern, with a rational / logical way of doing things. The second version is none of these things and everything it preaches is “Obey to the Saudi Royal Family” ( I can try to explain this in more details if you like, I just watched Michael Moore’s movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” did you know that “Muslims” already held 7% of your economy?).
 
So No, That’s not how I see it. But I understand your point. The same “element” is being used for what you are describing too and that’s very sad and unfortunate
 

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[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

One of the main things we seemed to have in the past but seem to have completely lost today is religious leadership.

This is a good thing, no? Religious leadership almost invariably leads to the abrogation of rights, a lowering of the standard of living, decline in educational standards, and setting people on fire (both figuratively and literally).

'There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the Dark Ages.' - Ruth Hurmence Green

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Absolutely.
 

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Also, the problem with scholastic thinking and this includes people I see as more “enlightened” religious thinkers is that they always need to rely on something to prove their points to others. Like “This Chapter of the Holy book shows us that….”, “This act of the prophet demonstrates that…” etc. etc.
 
Auguste Compte’s scientific method which is said to have its roots in medieval Arabia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...fic_method) is much more simple and reliable as a method of uncovering the truth. Also a philosophical way of thinking with a critical mind is much more effective in many areas. The first think that a real education system has to do is to free our minds in that way. First you need an open and sharp edged Buddhi as the Hindus call it (Buddhi = mind – etymologically it means “cutting tool”).
 
Then, you may or may not start a journey into the realm of spirit and that’s a very personal issue.
 
What I’m talking about here is more of a legal issue. I definitely think that a religious figure who is acting as an agitator in that way was a much less common occurrence in the past. And I believe that it’s the responsibility of anyone who sees himself or herself as a religious figure or authority to intervene and try to calm things down when he/she starts to observe that people are becoming agitated and are about to do stupid things. I see this as my right as a citizen. Anyone who is not able or is not able to display that level of responsibility toward his/her community should not even aspire to become a religious personality.
 
Otherwise the content of their sermon or preaching etc. is another issue. I openly do not listen to the preaching of any religious figure anymore. And I wouldn’t do that in the past either. These are thing that rely of the charisma and personality of the preacher and I think that not everyone is able to be a good preacher anyway.
 
But inciting people to hatred and vandalism. I think this should be punishable by law.

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[LinuxGal]

I just watched Michael Moore’s movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” did you know that “Muslims” already held 7% of your economy?).

An economy, by definition, is dynamic.  Wealth (and the markers that represent a claim on it) constantly change ownership.  Perhaps you mean 7% of the players in this game are Muslim.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

But inciting people to hatred and vandalism. I think this should be punishable by law.

Would it surprise you to learn that it is?

Boru

[Leonardo17]

I just watched Michael Moore’s movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” did you know that “Muslims” already held 7% of your economy?).

An economy, by definition, is dynamic.  Wealth (and the markers that represent a claim on it) constantly change ownership.  Perhaps you mean 7% of the players in this game are Muslim.

No I meant that when the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 was made, 7 % of US stocks belonged to the Saudi Royal family.
 
These petro-dictatorships are one of the main reasons why we have to switch to a carbon-free economy.
 
My problem is that in their hands, the religion of Islam is more of an ideology than a spiritual path. That’s why I dislike their ways of doing things in almost all areas.

[Leonardo17]

@Leonardo17

But inciting people to hatred and vandalism. I think this should be punishable by law.

Would it surprise you to learn that it is?

Boru

I mean everywhere.
 

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In some places (like here for instance). This has become a tool for intimidating the masses (Just like it is described in the movie Fahrenheit 9/11). In those years the American public was kept at bay thanks to mass media with constant threatening messages on TV about “Terrorists” and the Bush administration channeled all that energy to create positive public opinion on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which were largely unsuccessful and very costly ventures for the entire country (sorry if I am upsetting anyone ).
 
The same is happening here right now. Every 2-3 month or so we have some psycho cleric on social media. One of them wants to give some of our territory to Syria (don’t even ask), the other is insulting the founders of our republic, the other (that was just before the election) was calling people to mass murder in case the ruling AK Party lost the elections, another is seen attacking a left wing demonstration while shouting “death to infidels”.   
 
Still when I read this article on the Events in Pakistan, I concluded that these guys are simply not punished enough. And there is a parallel with the various sex scandals within the Catholic Church. I’m for more punishment. The main problem here is impunity

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[arewethereyet]

You do realize that illegal does not mean people won't do it?

It means there are legal consequences are in place if you are caught.

[Leonardo17]

You do realize that illegal does not mean people won't do it?

It means there are legal consequences are in place if you are caught.

…therefore the key to almost everything in this world seems to be a mandatory, free and universal primary education system that is based on teaching people how to have a scientific / rational way of thinking with a critical attitude toward all the elements in this world (that also includes a critical attitude toward consumerism for instance).
 

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And I do focus on that a lot. Because the word Karma in Sanskrit (Destiny in English or Kadr in Arabic) means Action. Jaggadish Vasudev does not agree that someone who is in a wheel chair now is in that wheelchair because of fate. He says it’s because that guy did not receive his polio vaccine when he was a child.
 
So there are many things that are up to us actually. Many men of women of religion still seem to have this aura of untouchability because of their positions. I don’t agree with that. And (a little bit of advertisement for my culture), in our culture the “Imam” is just the guy who leads the prayer when people are gathered. If you are 3-4 persons in a prison cell and you intend to pray all together, the Imam is just the guy who stands in the front so all the others pray together in a mostly synchronized manner. So no, this has to go.

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