Here we go ...

[Aegon]

Apartment living and anecdotes....dandy.

Go for it.

Well, with the stories I heard from people seeing some of the weirdest stuff ever in those apartments, I figured there was more going on here than you could believe. Granted, I never "saw" anything, but there was one time I was with someone, and this is from my notes:

They know about me and my life, and I know they are here. I have gotten knocks on the downstairs blackboard as I walked by a few times, one of those times I was with someone else. I walked back to the blackboard, looked it over, knocked back – nothing happened. I chuckled, walked away – it happened AGAIN. The other person was beginning to freak out, I just thought it was cool. I walked back a second time, and as I walked away – it happened AGAIN. The other person was ready to run … I just smiled because I knew it was a game.


At any rate, I had watched the typical paranormal shows on TV, and wondered one day what would happen if I gave it try myself. I started out real simple by putting a voice recorder program on my phone, and decided to try EVPs in a noise controlled environment. The bottom line was - it worked. What I had gotten was identical to what other people had gotten when they tried this method. It was shortly after that, one day I got up and turned on my phone - and - there was this "streak" that ran from the top right to the bottom left of the face of the phone ... and, it no longer worked. It would turn on - but - that was it. Now I had a small handful of information - and - a fried phone.


As far as the EVPs go, like I said they were identical to what other people had gotten ... even to the extent of a whisper-sounding voice. There was one also about my mother (I mentioned earlier) that said "Your mother went to hell."

I'll leave it here for now ... I have stuff to do and we can get into more tomorrow if you want.

No offense but I do not take paranormal anecdotes all that seriously. We all overestimate how much of our environment we understand at a given time. I believe the vast majority of ghost stories have explanations outside of ghosts, but the story-tellers are too confident in their ability to understand the situation to see it.

[Justin Case]

No - there are followers too. All "soldiers" in any war are in the same boat. All you need is one ... like Putin. Everybody else does all the dirty work.

If you haven't already, Lucifer Effect by Phillip Zimbardo is the best book you could read if you're interested in the idea of evil.

Downloaded the PDF ... I'll take a look-see

[The Grand Nudger]

Thread was foreplay for ghosts, eh? I had it 50/50 between that and demons.

[Justin Case]

Well I guess we should get into this "GOD" picture. As for me, I'm not a believer or unbeliever. The simple fact that all of what I've looked into has shown a really bad problem exists in this subject, and it's highly possible that thousands of years of natural hallucinogenic drug use has passed down nothing more than a hallucinogenic-based picture that we've been told is real. If I'm anything ... I'm a quester ... I want hard data answers, and frankly I haven't heard ANY from either side, and that includes science based researchers who are also looking for answers.

To keep this short, if we use religious history as the framework, starting at least from the time writing began, what we see is called polytheism. Just from this time frame, polytheism was passed down through history until ONE PERSON decided to toss it out the window and reinvent the entire picture (which didn't go over very well with the people). The time was the mid-1300s BC, the place was Egypt, and the "person" was Ahkenaton, who now said THE SUN was "GOD."

From this point historically, there are problems that grind this picture of historical development, because the seeming next culture involved was the Zoroastrian religion. All of the original Zoroastrian texts are gone, and all we have are the later written texts. Dating for Zarathustra's birth are all over the board time-wise, but Mary Boyce's approach historically says 1300 - 1000 BC. There are other scholars who agree with this time frame, and some who do not. The bottom line is - we don't know for sure. Zarathustra (AKA Zoroaster) had an "experience," and the "GOD" involved was no longer the "sun," but now was a being, with a different name and doctrine as well.


From here the next culture involved would be the Semitic people, they were polytheistic originally, and as time passed, they too became followers of monotheism, complete with another GOD, another story, and, another name. Time periods are based on their text stories, but what really happened is not known.

From here this story of a monotheistic being filtered down through history, and here we are today. Were it not for Ahkenaton's major change, none of this would have happened (and polytheism more than likely would have made it to today).

This would have been a much clearer picture had the Zoroastrian texts not disappeared, but, a picture can be put together, including where (what we call) the Semitic "end times" picture in Christianity came from. It too came from the Zoroastrian religion during the Hebrew exile when the Hebrews wound up living with the Zoroastrian people. When they finally went home, they simply rewrote the story. The "one coming" in the Zoroastrian story was the Saoshyant, and simply became the messiah in the Jewish story. If you actually take the New Testament apart, it specifically states this "return and end" were to happen during THEIR lifetime somewhere ... and - it failed.

So ... does "GOD" exist? Not according to religious history. Next problem ... does this "afterlife," connected to some sort of other dimensional world, exist? It seems SOMETHING is going on. This would mean that all of the religions that existed through time had NO answers to this topic, and guessed - one after the other. What we're dealing with is THEIR guesswork. If there's something there, can we straighten this all out?

[Angrboda]

Still waiting for something coherent.

[HappySkeptic]

Why bother trying to straighten out ancient "guesswork"?

I don't see any evidence of gods. Science doesn't need gods to make predictive models. There don't need to be gods to explain our own existence.

Gods may exist or not (most likely not), but I think evidence disproves all the versions depicted by the ancients.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Well I guess we should get into this "GOD" picture. As for me, I'm not a believer or unbeliever. The simple fact that all of what I've looked into has shown a really bad problem exists in this subject, and it's highly possible that thousands of years of natural hallucinogenic drug use has passed down nothing more than a hallucinogenic-based picture that we've been told is real. If I'm anything ... I'm a quester ... I want hard data answers, and frankly I haven't heard ANY from either side, and that includes science based researchers who are also looking for answers.

To keep this short, if we use religious history as the framework, starting at least from the time writing began, what we see is called polytheism. Just from this time frame, polytheism was passed down through history until ONE PERSON decided to toss it out the window and reinvent the entire picture (which didn't go over very well with the people). The time was the mid-1300s BC, the place was Egypt, and the "person" was Ahkenaton, who now said THE SUN was "GOD."

From this point historically, there are problems that grind this picture of historical development, because the seeming next culture involved was the Zoroastrian religion. All of the original Zoroastrian texts are gone, and all we have are the later written texts. Dating for Zarathustra's birth are all over the board time-wise, but Mary Boyce's approach historically says 1300 - 1000 BC. There are other scholars who agree with this time frame, and some who do not. The bottom line is - we don't know for sure. Zarathustra (AKA Zoroaster) had an "experience," and the "GOD" involved was no longer the "sun," but now was a being, with a different name and doctrine as well.


From here the next culture involved would be the Semitic people, they were polytheistic originally, and as time passed, they too became followers of monotheism, complete with another GOD, another story, and, another name. Time periods are based on their text stories, but what really happened is not known.

From here this story of a monotheistic being filtered down through history, and here we are today. Were it not for Ahkenaton's major change, none of this would have happened (and polytheism more than likely would have made it to today).

This would have been a much clearer picture had the Zoroastrian texts not disappeared, but, a picture can be put together, including where (what we call) the Semitic "end times" picture in Christianity came from. It too came from the Zoroastrian religion during the Hebrew exile when the Hebrews wound up living with the Zoroastrian people. When they finally went home, they simply rewrote the story. The "one coming" in the Zoroastrian story was the Saoshyant, and simply became the messiah in the Jewish story. If you actually take the New Testament apart, it specifically states this "return and end" were to happen during THEIR lifetime somewhere ... and - it failed.

So ... does "GOD" exist? Not according to religious history. Next problem ... does this "afterlife," connected to some sort of other dimensional world, exist? It seems SOMETHING is going on. This would mean that all of the religions that existed through time had NO answers to this topic, and guessed - one after the other. What we're dealing with is THEIR guesswork. If there's something there, can we straighten this all out?

Why is it that you think religious belief is the result of the historic use of hallucinogens, but not belief in ghosts and other aspects of the paranormal?

We all know plenty of sincerely religious people who have never been personally exposed to hallucinogenic drugs. Why should their delusions be laid at the door of the use of mind-altering substances, but your own delusions regarding ghosts and EVP are ‘real’?

Boru

[Justin Case]

Still waiting for something coherent.

Ahh ... words from the "bringer of grief."

[Justin Case]

Why bother trying to straighten out ancient "guesswork"?

I don't see any evidence of gods.  Science doesn't need gods to make predictive models.  There don't need to be gods to explain our own existence.

Gods may exist or not (most likely not), but I think evidence disproves all the versions depicted by the ancients.

You DID actually read what I wrote ... right? There is no evidence of "gods."

[Justin Case]

Why is it that you think religious belief is the result of the historic use of hallucinogens, but not belief in ghosts and other aspects of the paranormal?

We all know plenty of sincerely religious people who have never been personally exposed to hallucinogenic drugs. Why should their delusions be laid at the door of the use of mind-altering substances, but your own delusions regarding ghosts and EVP are ‘real’?

Boru

It's the (ready?) INTERPRETATIONS I'm dealing with.