Pure Brutality

[Belacqua]

This is why people who work on their spirit are attempting to overcome the conditions you describe. 

They feel they are more aware of reality than those stuck in a materialist egoistic condition. 

The means to this state are often uncomfortable.

But they aren't, in fact they are even less aware of reality than most people, the spiritual people are completely living in some fantasy world in their head. I mean shit, we all have fantasies, but this is something else. Spiritual people completely reject the world as it actually is, and instead choose to believe they know a better way. They don't, but they all very much think they do. I had a therapist who was that kind of person, I trusted him for too long. I finally realized all he wanted was money, and stopped seeing him after that. I surmised that he was simply a money grubbing douche after thinking about how, after seeing him for many years, my mom was still the very same insufferable person she always was, so clearly therapy wasn't doing anything for her. But the therapist kept taking her money, and I'm sure he figured out at some point that therapy wasn't helping my mom, he just wanted her to keep coming back so he could make more money. I wanted to believe some people were better than that, but no. This dude clearly thought so highly of himself and was in fact just as much of an asshole as anyone else, if not worse. I have since refused to have any more therapy sessions with any therapist, I don't trust these people anymore. I shouldn't have trusted any of them to begin with. I am baffled at how literally ALL of the pertinent lessons a person learns in life are negative ones.

I have no doubt that many people who consider themselves spiritual are foolish. It is an extremely easy way to fool oneself. 

And I'm very sorry that one of them caused you harm.

We live in a time when any kind of spiritual effort is extremely difficult. 

Traditionally it has required extreme discipline, trust in a master or some kind of well-worn tradition, and the hard work of giving up many things that get in the way. I don't see how these great traditions could possibly work as weekly therapy-for-pay. They're incompatible.

[Ahriman]

But they aren't, in fact they are even less aware of reality than most people, the spiritual people are completely living in some fantasy world in their head. I mean shit, we all have fantasies, but this is something else. Spiritual people completely reject the world as it actually is, and instead choose to believe they know a better way. They don't, but they all very much think they do. I had a therapist who was that kind of person, I trusted him for too long. I finally realized all he wanted was money, and stopped seeing him after that. I surmised that he was simply a money grubbing douche after thinking about how, after seeing him for many years, my mom was still the very same insufferable person she always was, so clearly therapy wasn't doing anything for her. But the therapist kept taking her money, and I'm sure he figured out at some point that therapy wasn't helping my mom, he just wanted her to keep coming back so he could make more money. I wanted to believe some people were better than that, but no. This dude clearly thought so highly of himself and was in fact just as much of an asshole as anyone else, if not worse. I have since refused to have any more therapy sessions with any therapist, I don't trust these people anymore. I shouldn't have trusted any of them to begin with. I am baffled at how literally ALL of the pertinent lessons a person learns in life are negative ones.

I have no doubt that many people who consider themselves spiritual are foolish. It is an extremely easy way to fool oneself. 

And I'm very sorry that one of them caused you harm.

We live in a time when any kind of spiritual effort is extremely difficult. 

Traditionally it has required extreme discipline, trust in a master or some kind of well-worn tradition, and the hard work of giving up many things that get in the way. I don't see how these great traditions could possibly work as weekly therapy-for-pay. They're incompatible.

That's what he was trying to do, be my master/mentor something like that. Maybe he even meant well. But all self-delusion aside, he was just trying to make money, same as anyone else. That situation drove it home for me that everyone is basically the same, and that there are no "special" people.

Moral of the story: Don't be a money grubbing little bitch if you can't back up your world view with some extremely good justification.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

This is why people who work on their spirit are attempting to overcome the conditions you describe. 

They feel they are more aware of reality than those stuck in a materialist egoistic condition. 

The means to this state are often uncomfortable.

But they aren't, in fact they are even less aware of reality than most people, the spiritual people are completely living in some fantasy world in their head. I mean shit, we all have fantasies, but this is something else. Spiritual people completely reject the world as it actually is, and instead choose to believe they know a better way. They don't, but they all very much think they do. I had a therapist who was that kind of person, I trusted him for too long. I finally realized all he wanted was money, and stopped seeing him after that. I surmised that he was simply a money grubbing douche after thinking about how, after seeing him for many years, my mom was still the very same insufferable person she always was, so clearly therapy wasn't doing anything for her. But the therapist kept taking her money, and I'm sure he figured out at some point that therapy wasn't helping my mom, he just wanted her to keep coming back so he could make more money. I wanted to believe some people were better than that, but no. This dude clearly thought so highly of himself and was in fact just as much of an asshole as anyone else, if not worse. I have since refused to have any more therapy sessions with any therapist, I don't trust these people anymore. I shouldn't have trusted any of them to begin with. I am baffled at how literally ALL of the pertinent lessons a person learns in life are negative ones.

(Bold mine)

That's not necessarily true. Many people express their spirituality by embracing 'the world as it actually is.

Any road, spirituality seems a weird hook on which to hang bitching about your therapist.

Boru

[Belacqua]

I have no doubt that many people who consider themselves spiritual are foolish. It is an extremely easy way to fool oneself. 

And I'm very sorry that one of them caused you harm.

We live in a time when any kind of spiritual effort is extremely difficult. 

Traditionally it has required extreme discipline, trust in a master or some kind of well-worn tradition, and the hard work of giving up many things that get in the way. I don't see how these great traditions could possibly work as weekly therapy-for-pay. They're incompatible.

That's what he was trying to do, be my master/mentor something like that. Maybe he even meant well. But all self-delusion aside, he was just trying to make money, same as anyone else. That situation drove it home for me that everyone is basically the same, and that there are no "special" people.

Moral of the story: Don't be a money grubbing little bitch if you can't back up your world view with some extremely good justification.

Sad to say, it's not that unusual for some traditional practice that works in different circumstances to get deracinated and applied in a shallow way. These serious but difficult traditions aren't meant to be tools in a quick-fix toolkit that people can pay for. 

I still think there are good people out there, but they're not the ones advertising.

[Sheldon]

So where are we on any objective evidence that a soul or anything spiritual exists, or are even possible?

We are at the point of Bel trying to demonstrate how well versed he is in ancient philosophy, particularly near, far and middle eastern philosophy. We are at the point of Bel demonstrating his intellectual superiority to the intellectual paupers on this forum. We are at the point of Bel quoting ancient philosophers as authorites, and in case you think about rebutting any of that please consider: Bel is not presenting his own thoughts just "reporting" what Aristotle et al say, and is going to run and hide behind those "authorities" as soon as you bring forth justified criticism.
This is about Bel not souls, didnt you get it?

Ah, my middling ill-informed intellect didn't pick that up, all I managed to glean was a long winded and redundant explanation of the fact that words can have more than one meaning, and that their etymology means the original definitions usually differ wildly from what we currently understand them to mean. 

Perhaps he genuinely thought I didn't know this? Though I find that highly unlikely. He seems to enjoy spinning topics away from the specific, to broad and often irrelevant but trivially true assertions, while peppering them by name dropping of famous philosophers. 

Oddly this tactic is one often used by religious apologists to create a false equivalence, even famous apologists. I mean who hasn't seen the false equivalence fallacy "we all have / need faith"? That falsely equates two very different definitions of the word, here we see a similar form of semantic sophistry with the word soul. I mean in ancient Rome early christians were called atheists, though this fact is hardly relevant in debates about their beliefs now. Etymology whilst fascinating, is not always relevant. 

Some hippy claims that "god is the universe and everything" for example, and since they exist, by extension god exists, and act as if they have presented a sound argument for a deity, rather than a simple false equivalence fallacy using semantic sophistry. The fact some people define the soul as the human form and function had zero relevance to my post obviously, since I only included the word soul as it was in the dictionary definition of spiritual, which I posted for context. All of that was ignored of course.

[Belacqua]

@Sheldon

Earlier when you said "if you can't demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence a soul or spirit exists, then I have no sound or objective reason to accept claims they do" it gave me the impression that you wanted to talk about soul and spirit, and whether there's any reason to think that they exist.

If I was mistaken in this impression I apologize. I won't bother you any more.

[Sheldon]

@Sheldon

Earlier when you said "if you can't demonstrate anything approaching objective evidence a soul or spirit exists, then I have no sound or objective reason to accept claims they do" it gave me the impression that you wanted to talk about soul and spirit, and whether there's any reason to think that they exist.

If I was mistaken in this impression I apologize. I won't bother you any more.

Try reading the whole post for context, and the post I was responding to, instead of leaping on one sentence, and spinning into another chance to cite an ancient greek philosopher, without proper context. 

It should have given you the impression I was responding to a specific claim about spirituality by another poster, and that I was asserting my own criteria for belief, while asking that poster for clarity on what he meant. I even quoted the dictionary definition of that word for clarity, (which contained the words spirit and soul), and questioned how his vague definition differed from it, and off you went to how ancient Greeks defined the word soul, as if I didn't already know that word definitions have evolved over time.

adjective
1.
relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

You see the last emboldenced part right? So a long piece of word salad name dropping Aristotle, just to present a different definition, had no relevance. I also challenged your sweeping and unevidenced claims about what most christians believe a soul to be, I challenged you to evidence that, and you offered nada. 

The Catholic catechism seems to think it is immortal, created by (a) god, and that it does not die when the body dies:

CITATION

[Belacqua]

Sadhguru says that AI will soon replace things like university teachers. The era of being smart by being born 1 or 2 decades before others and loading information to your brain may be over soon (and that was unthinkable even in the 90’s).
 
Today the porn industry is working on sex bots that are based on software’s like Chat-GPT. So Anna de Armas like Blade Runner kind of wives may start being commercialized in our lifetimes.
 
So this probably answers most of the philosophical debate.
 
- Yes, if that’s what you define as “The Soul”, machines have already started to replicate that.
 

I confess I remain very skeptical about all this stuff. The idea that AI has anything like the interior experience, which is a defining characteristic of being human, seems remote to me. 
No doubt it will be useful for all kinds of applications, but I don't see it as anything like a human soul. 

Yet, “The Soul” to the spiritual or spiritually inclined religious person is different. First of all it is a question mark. Like a Socrates style “I don’t know” kind of question mark. And all the efforst of the spiritual person is an attempt to elucidate this unknown. And Mystics from all traditions will tell you that Yes, one can achieve that in his/her lifetime.

Yes, Socrates, in the Phaedrus, is careful to say what the soul is LIKE, but not what the soul IS. And of course one of the consistent facts about mystical experience is that the person having the experience says it is not something that can be conveyed in words. 

But I don't think we have to leave the definition of "soul" as some kind of blank space. 

it’s all over the world not just Cowboys. You may log on youtube and type in something like “Beirut in the 1960’s”. In fact I am going to add the link below. You may also type in things like “Damascus in the 1960’s” or “Teheran in the 1960’s” and other stuff like that.
 
Before the emergence and spread of Political Islam as an ideology (mostly in the 1960’s) the world was a more civilized place. See civility is a choice. So is other neurotic / narcissistic approaches that include both extreme forms of capitalism (like libertarianism for instance) and/or things like Political Islam and/or the socialist experience / Stalinism that maintained itself between 1917 and 1991.
 
I won’t go into the philosophical debates here. But true forms of spirituality across the world will approach all of these thing as one singular problem that is plaguing all of humanity. And I did mention Political Islam being nothing but an Ego-based doctrine that is unrelated to any type of true spirituality right? 

That's true -- it's not just the American cowboy spirit. Putting the ego at the center, justifying that, and atomizing society because of it, happens everywhere to some degree. I mean, if it weren't so prevalent then the spirit-workers wouldn't have to work so hard against it. 

But I do think that our current liberal capitalist bourgeois values require an emphasis on the ego to continue functioning -- it's a vital feature, not a bug. 

Institutionalized religion, it seems to me, sometimes gains popularity in people's attempt to find an alternative to the money-only values that have soaked into the world so deeply. Unfortunately, as you say, the politicized versions of any religion tend to adopt the worst aspects of the political world rather than spreading the best aspects of the religious. It appears that soul-work must always be an individual struggle -- though of course choosing the right models makes all the difference.

[Ahriman]

What is a "spirit worker"

[Silver]

Sounds like a shaman or a medium.