Is Zionism a Spiritual Phenomenon?

[The Grand Nudger]

I had a similar experience. Military units being a giant shitshow from the inside looking out. I was always anxious for the eventuality of some fuckup I was technically responsible for.

They say they dropped a few dozen.

[Leonardo17]

I had a similar experience.  Military units being a giant shitshow from the inside looking out.  I was always anxious for the eventuality of some fuckup I was technically responsible for.  

They say they dropped a few dozen.

Yes, I am also glad that the whole experience is far away in the past and living only in my memories
 
This brings us to the point that boots are not the solution to anything. I’ve already mentioned Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Lebanon or even Vietnam. Maybe there was a time in the past (in the 1940’ or 1950’s) when you could bring down dictators and create democratic countries instead. For some reason, this doesn’t work in our time anymore. It only makes everything worse.
 
Also I happen to live in a country in which soldiers tried to straighten up democracy every once in a while (with their own jar-headed methods). And these were the foundation of the strengthening of political Islamist movements since the mid - 90’s.
 
Ideally, there should be no army and the right for citizens to be armed with fire-guns. That didn’t work perfectly either but the idea was good. The next best option is to have soldiers who don’t do anything except to sit in their barracks, just wait there until some sort of threat shows up
 
No one else buy D. Trump could have done what he and Netanyahu have just achieved. As I said, there is a whole range of options between letting the IRI do whatever it wants and bombing it back into the Stone Age. The main one being to isolate the regime entirely (not negotiating with them on any issue anymore) and talking to the Iranian civil society instead. And making sure that no one is buying their oil and gas anymore.
 
China is currently buying their fuel and reselling it to Europe. My country is still buying their oil and gas and no one is even asking us why.
 
And I need to talk of all the infrastructure. When those basiji leaders will be spending their petro-dollars in some Arab Emirate in the Persian Gulf, it will be the survivors of the US and Israeli bombings who will be trying to rebuild these schools, roads, hospitals etc.
 
Also 200 million $ is a huge amount of money. This means that one week of war is enough to solve all of the homelessness issue in all the cities of North-America.
 
Still I am going to finish with this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Berkin_Elvan
 
This dude was going probably going to get his University degree this year or last year if he had been allowed to live. It’s not just Mahsa Amini. Political Islamists are merciless murderers who could do just about anything just to get political power and keep it.
 
So there are still rules that exist in this universe. I don’t believe that such people can just do stuff and keep doing these stuff without expecting anything to happen. So at some point, things will happen (always) and no one really cares if it’s fair or not.
 
So I also agree with D. Trump on that. If these guys has any cerebral tissue left they would have already raised the white flag by now. But they can’t / they won’t. So this is happening now

[The Grand Nudger]

There are all sorts of reasons an operation as simple as crossing a creek might fail - but we probably do want to leave room for the possibility that recent nation building exercises have failed because the nation builders did not actually want them to succeed. The ruling classes of our own purported democracies have more in common both ideologically and financially with the dictators and oligarchs of nothereistan than either do with their own nations citizens. This may also explain why we'd rather spend 200 million not building a democracy than that same 200 million building houses for homeless vets. If you want to bring in humanitarian aid, bulk out infrastructure, build schools and hospitals, and provide physical security for some group of people ....after toppling an authoritarian regime..... it's going to take boots. Lots of boots. Professional soldiers, well trained, all-volunteer, and with a strong culture of accountability. This will likely never not be the case, no matter how complex our murderbots become - because nation building, from intimate one on one encounters to full programs, requires a distinctly and overtly human touch.

As for civilians with guns - that's how you get blackwaters. Nobody needs those assholes in their life.

[Leonardo17]

There are all sorts of reasons an operation as simple as crossing a creek might fail - but we probably do want to leave room for the possibility that recent nation building exercises have failed because the nation builders did not actually want them to succeed.  The ruling classes of our own purported democracies have more in common both ideologically and financially with the dictators and oligarchs of nothereistan than either do with their own nations citizens.  This may also explain why we'd rather spend 200 million not building a democracy than that same 200 million building houses for homeless vets.  

If you want to bring in humanitarian aid, bulk out infrastructure, build schools and hospitals, and provide physical security for some group of people ....after toppling an authoritarian regime..... it's going to take boots.  Lots of boots.  Professional soldiers, well trained, all-volunteer, and with a strong culture of accountability.  This will likely never not be the case, no matter how complex our murderbots become - because nation building, from intimate one on one encounters to full programs, requires a distinctly and overtly human touch.  

As for civilians with guns - that's how you get blackwaters.  Nobody needs those assholes in their life.

First Part: This is absolutely true. That’s a phenomenon that is well known even in spiritual literature. Evil does exist + there are these power-centers of evil in this world. This is basically a phenomenon that is still common in this spiritual era of humanity (I can elaborate on that if you want to).
 
Still: When you have the rule of law, like the ancient Egyptian had, even the pharaoh was subordinate to the rule of Maat. Then there is fewer chance of these ego-centric / self-involved personalities to do whatever they want. But it is still a constant struggle. My knowledge of the history of the US is limited but think of Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Malcom-X… even in advanced democracies, people who are willing to kill in order to get things the way they want can be successful at some level.
 
So no country in this world is perfect (not in this era as I said). But having an ideology (communism, fascism or political Islam) in which a small group of people are claiming to have all the answers and are socially engineering you everyday day of your life (Because they have the answers and you don’t), that’s something else. I think people should be aware of this fact
 
Second Part: I’m only saying that boots did not solve anything in the middle-east and I am not going to support a larger military intervention in Iran after what happened in Afghanistan. All these soldiers have a right to live as much as we do if you know what I mean
 
I also believe in a regime change. But nobody attacked the Soviet Union. When I was 8 year old my parents were telling me it was the world’s N-1 superpower. In November 1991 I saw Germans live on CNN who had climbed on the concrete structure and were taring it apart with whatever tools they had.
 
So Iranians do not need Israel to come and liberate them. Nobody really knows what the state of Israel is and is not so I would not be fighting the Basiji to death with the words of the Israeli PM on my head
 
But at least half of the Iranians hate this regime deeply. There is also the Iranian diaspora and the son of their previous monarchs who is ready to support them in anyway that is necessary. So I’m not going to do their homework for them but that’s already a lot of stuff that political scientists can work on.
 
Besides there is 1500 km between the two countries, Israel cannot launch a military invasion of Iran even if it wanted to

[HappySkeptic]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I've long had the view that the International Community should outlaw dictatorial regimes. If a country gets below a certain score on democracy metrics, automatic sanctions kick in.

While democracy is no bulwark against expansionism or imperialism, those are already dealt with under international law. But non-democracies ALWAYS make life shittier for their own people and for other countries.

I don't mind Iran getting kicked down a notch, but outside of internal revolution, I don't see these attacks as providing lasting benefit. It will just prove to Iran that they need more arms, and need to move faster with partners like Russia and Pakistan to create nuclear warheads. Israel trusts their own bombing campaigns more than any deals, but why should the U.S. just blindly follow along? Trump ripped up the Obama deal because Israel told him to (and probably John Bolton as well).

[The Grand Nudger]

....with countries like the us administering the test and effecting correction.......?

[Leonardo17]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I've long had the view that the International Community should outlaw dictatorial regimes.  If a country gets below a certain score on democracy metrics, automatic sanctions kick in.

While democracy is no bulwark against expansionism or imperialism, those are already dealt with under international law.  But non-democracies ALWAYS make life shittier for their own people and for other countries.

I don't mind Iran getting kicked down a notch, but outside of internal revolution, I don't see these attacks as providing lasting benefit.  It will just prove to Iran that they need more arms, and need to move faster with partners like Russia and Pakistan to create nuclear warheads.  Israel trusts their own bombing campaigns more than any deals, but why should the U.S. just blindly follow along?  Trump ripped up the Obama deal because Israel told him to (and probably John Bolton as well).

I’m not very happy with the fact that I have to say positive things about Donald Trump.
 
But after October 7th 2023, I cannot blame for Netanyahu doing all the things he already did. Israel is now a sovereign nation and it has to retaliate if somebody attacks its citizens. Iran on the other hand is the country that participated to the construction of terror organization like Hamas and Hezbollah.
 
My country has a history of dealing with terror supporting states like Iran. In the past we had successful talks with Father Assad and Saddam Hussein and successfully convinced them not to support the PKK (A Kurdish separatist group that was founded in 1980). If the outcome of these talks were not positive tensions would have risen very quickly between my country and these regimes.
 
Yesterday a Chinese vessel shot down a German drone with a laser over the Red Sea. Germany responded very quickly and China had to deny the event ever happened.
 
So you don’t support terror groups who kill the citizens of another country. In fact, I don’t know how the US and allies let Kim Yon Un have nuclear weapons. There are probably details about this that we don’t know of.
 
Pakistan will not help Iran get nuclear weapons. Their nuclear program is a response to the Indian Nuclear program which is probably a response to China’s growing nuclear arsenal.

[The Grand Nudger]

You don't have to, it's a lifestyle decision; and the proper term for what israel is doing is not "retaliation" - it's "ethnic cleansing". Also elective.

[TheWhiteMarten]

The original Zionists were secular, so doubtful.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

^You’re back. Oh, joy.

Boru