What is pleasure?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.


Can you give me an example of one?

Having a child, passing an exam, discovering new meaning in your life.  You're putting the cart before the horse.

Yeah, it’s pretty circular. Only intrinsically good experiences give us pleasure, so we seek out these experiences in order to feel pleasure which makes them instrumentally good.

Boru

[Belacqua]

I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.


Can you give me an example of one?

Having a child, passing an exam, discovering new meaning in your life.  You're putting the cart before the horse.

I think everyone understands that pleasures may be a mixture of good-in-themselves and good-for-a-further-end. I'd say that all those you list here are of that type. 

Passing an exam, for example, is a pleasure because you've accomplished something. But don't most exams have some instrumental reason why you took them? Like they allow you to pass a course, or gain a new qualification for employment, or get a driver's license, or something like that. I don't know of any cases where people take exams simply for the pleasure of the exam (though there might be such people). 

"Discovering a new meaning in your life" is not clear to me. Does this mean that you have come to understand something that was going on for a long time before? Like an epiphany about why you've been living a certain way? Or does it mean that you discover a new path that you want to follow from now on? The latter would imply something instrumental, I think. "From now on, living in this way will make me the kind of person I want to be." 

An art dealer, I think, can get non-instrumental pleasure from looking at a painting. But if he's inspecting the painting for quality, attempting to make an attribution, estimating its value at auction, etc., then he's being instrumental. I would hope that an art dealer got into the business because he likes art, so the aesthetic pleasure of seeing the painting would be included in the mix.

[Belacqua]

“The end of a melody is not its goal: but nonetheless, had the melody not reached its end it would not have reached its goal either. A parable.”

― Nietzsche

[Disagreeable]

Those experiences are all instrumentally good, not good for their own sake.

If you didn't gain anything positive from the kick in a bollocks, and you weren't a masochist so the experience wouldn't count as a pleasure overall, then it isn't good for its own sake.

Same applies to the other examples. They're good instrumentally, not for their own sake.

Let’s not split rabbits. The case can be made that all experiences are instrumentally good and that none are intrinsically good.

Boru

The experience of doing cocaine is usually intrinsically good but it's usually instrumentally very bad.

The experience of listening to your favorite piece of music is usually intrinsically good but instrumentally it's usually neutral.

[Disagreeable]

I agree with you Belacqua, about those two definitions of pleasure. I used to use the second one a lot in the past. But nowadays, as you can see, I use the first.


Can you give me an example of one?

Having a child, passing an exam, discovering new meaning in your life.  You're putting the cart before the horse.

I'm sure that your experience of having a child largely involves pleasure. Though, not always. And then the question is just whether the pleasures outweigh the displeasures.

Passing an exam can lead to pride, which is again, pleasure. Although, because it *leads to* pleasure then in that case it's an instrumental good rather than a pleasure. But the pride itself is a pleasure.

Discovering new meaning in your life is a kind of intellectual pleasure.

It depends how we define pleasure. But under the way I have been defining it, these things count as pleasures.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Let’s not split rabbits. The case can be made that all experiences are instrumentally good and that none are intrinsically good.

Boru

The experience of doing cocaine is usually intrinsically good but it's usually instrumentally very bad.

The experience of listening to your favorite piece of music is usually intrinsically good but instrumentally it's usually neutral.

So, why do people do cocaine? Because it’s instrumental to the pleasure they feel. Same with listening to a piece of music, watching a sunrise, falling in love, etc. These things are instrumental to the pleasure we get from doing them. We don’t know if ANY experience is pleasurable until we’ve had it. Pleasure is the end game of a pleasurable experience. That makes the acts instrumental, not intrinsic.

Boru

[Disagreeable]

The experience of doing cocaine is usually intrinsically good but it's usually instrumentally very bad.

The experience of listening to your favorite piece of music is usually intrinsically good but instrumentally it's usually neutral.

So, why do people do cocaine? Because it’s instrumental to the pleasure they feel. Same with listening to a piece of music, watching a sunrise, falling in love, etc. These things are instrumental to the pleasure we get from doing them. We don’t know if ANY experience is pleasurable until we’ve had it. Pleasure is the end game of a pleasurable experience. That makes the acts instrumental, not intrinsic.

Boru

Well the pleasurable experiences you list are good in and of themselves, for their own sake, which makes them intrinsically good.

The fact that people find pleasure useful doesn't make them instrumental in the relevant sense of intrinsic versus instrumental value. I was talking about experiences that are good in themselves versus experiences that are good because they lead to something else. I wasn't talking about whether activities are 'instrumentally useful' or something like that. So now I think that we're talking past each other.

You say "We don't know if any experience is pleasurable until we've had it." But I disagree because we can know that a pleasure is pleasurable *during* the experience. It doesn't have to be after the experience.

Another thing. When we find an experience pleasurable it's not like we have the experience and then it produces pleasure. The pleasurable experience itself feels pleasurable as we're experiencing it. Which is an example of intrinsic value, not instrumental value.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

So, why do people do cocaine? Because it’s instrumental to the pleasure they feel. Same with listening to a piece of music, watching a sunrise, falling in love, etc. These things are instrumental to the pleasure we get from doing them. We don’t know if ANY experience is pleasurable until we’ve had it. Pleasure is the end game of a pleasurable experience. That makes the acts instrumental, not intrinsic.

Boru

Well the pleasurable experiences you list are good in and of themselves, for their own sake, which makes them intrinsically good.

The fact that people find pleasure useful doesn't make them instrumental in the relevant sense of intrinsic versus instrumental value. I was talking about experiences that are good in themselves versus experiences that are good because they lead to something else. I wasn't talking about whether activities are 'instrumentally useful' or something like that. So now I think that we're talking past each other.

You say "We don't know if any experience is pleasurable until we've had it." But I disagree because we can know that a pleasure is pleasurable *during* the experience. It doesn't have to be after the experience.

Another thing. When we find an experience pleasurable it's not like we have the experience and then it produces pleasure. The pleasurable experience itself feels pleasurable as we're experiencing it. Which is an example of intrinsic value, not instrumental value.

Then why do people seek out pleasurable experiences? To experience pleasure. Duh.

Boru

[Disagreeable]

Well the pleasurable experiences you list are good in and of themselves, for their own sake, which makes them intrinsically good.

The fact that people find pleasure useful doesn't make them instrumental in the relevant sense of intrinsic versus instrumental value. I was talking about experiences that are good in themselves versus experiences that are good because they lead to something else. I wasn't talking about whether activities are 'instrumentally useful' or something like that. So now I think that we're talking past each other.

You say "We don't know if any experience is pleasurable until we've had it." But I disagree because we can know that a pleasure is pleasurable *during* the experience. It doesn't have to be after the experience.

Another thing. When we find an experience pleasurable it's not like we have the experience and then it produces pleasure. The pleasurable experience itself feels pleasurable as we're experiencing it. Which is an example of intrinsic value, not instrumental value.

Then why do people seek out pleasurable experiences? To experience pleasure. Duh.

Boru

Yes but the pleasurable experience is good in itself, intrinsically. It's not like you experience the pleasurable experience and then that pleasurable experience leads to pleasure. The pleasurable experience *is* the pleasure. Hence why it's intrinsically good.

Think of tasting chocolate: the sweetness isn’t something that comes after you eat it — the sweetness is the experience of eating chocolate itself. Similarly, the goodness of a pleasurable experience just is the pleasure you feel while having it.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Then why do people seek out pleasurable experiences? To experience pleasure. Duh.

Boru

Yes but the pleasurable experience is good in itself, intrinsically. It's not like you experience the pleasurable experience and then that pleasurable experience leads to pleasure. The pleasurable experience *is* the pleasure. Hence why it's intrinsically good.

Think of tasting chocolate: the sweetness isn’t something that comes after you eat it — the sweetness is the experience of eating chocolate itself. Similarly, the goodness of a pleasurable experience just is the pleasure you feel while having it.

But if you seek out experiences that give you pleasure - even if that pleasure is concurrent with the experience - you’re doing it for that reason. It may be an instant reward, but your motivation in doing so is what makes it instrumental.

Boru