How Do We Behave?

[Faith No More]

Thanks FNM. If you demand what people do... that's a morality from rules rather than morality from thinking. In this plan (Xtianity) you're meant to make your own choice.

Then how do you explain the ten commandments? The bible is always preaching morality from rules and tells you not to make your own choice about certain acts. Why so clear on things like murder, lying, stealing, and even worshiping false idols, but so ambiguous on slavery?

[Girlysprite]

I think we're back where we were a few pages ago, where I said that Christians and Atheists both do exactly the same thing: trying to use their own minds to figure out what is good and what is bad?

I do have a lot more thoughts about slavery and morale in general, but these are not religion related, so I won't divert this thread. If anyone is interested to talk about that specific topic though, I'll open up another thread.

[Napoléon]

You completely misunderstand Nap. Again. Yet again to want to see every verse in the bible as prescriptive, where it's descriptive.

Like I already said... from the biblical account we can see God's perspective applied.

Ahh yes, it's my fault your religion is so horrendously complicated, contradictory and has thousands of interpretations.

[fr0d0]

Hmmmm....do you think you would have "condoned" slavery if YOU were one of the slaves?

I'd have no choice. I would know the consequences of poverty etc etc, just like we're victims of our situations now. I would guess that no one below the level of King would lack ambition.

Then how do you explain the ten commandments? The bible is always preaching morality from rules and tells you not to make your own choice about certain acts. Why so clear on things like murder, lying, stealing, and even worshiping false idols, but so ambiguous on slavery?

Seems you could lump all those things together as clearly unhealthy. Slavery and it's parallels in modern society are in the secular realm and subjective. Is the imposed loss of liberty wrong? If we're treating prisoners fairly (not all western prisons have done so recently) is that following the biblical model inspired by God?

I think we're back where we were a few pages ago, where I said that Christians and Atheists both do exactly the same thing: trying to use their own minds to figure out what is good and what is bad?

We all have to. If your morality is informed purely by secular influences then there will be a conflict at some point with an aspirational morality.

[Girlysprite]

We all have to. If your morality is informed purely by secular influences then there will be a conflict at some point with an aspirational morality.

Could you explain please?

[fr0d0]

Secular morality:
Follows cultural influence
Follows personal interest - can be good or bad

Aspirational morality:
Follows perfection
Follows selfless interest

You can't conclude that any person would we better or worse than any other given that, because it's down to the individual and how much they follow their ideals.

[DoktorZ]

Secular morality:
Follows cultural influence
Follows personal interest - can be good or bad

Aspirational morality:
Follows perfection
Follows selfless interest

You can't conclude that any person would we better or worse than any other given that, because it's down to the individual and how much they follow their ideals.

Aspirational morality always follows cultural influence. All forms of morality follow cultural influence. The whole idea that "following perfection" is part of "morality" is a product of cultural influence. Others may define morality differently (e.g., obedience to a moral authority), so I think the division here is arbitrary.

Secular morality, I think, has the advantage of being open to critical debate and the constraints of social contract. That's why most developed societies have embraced it for the foundations of their legal systems. It's the only form of morality that can come close to encompassing contrasting viewpoints, even when those viewpoints are based on irrational beliefs without evidence or sufficient justification.

[fr0d0]

There is always a cultural influence I would agree. But there is most definitely a conflict where aspirational morality is factored in. If aspirational wins then there's a difference.

I don't think that secular morality is bad, and of course it's changeable. Often different standards are dismissed on current standards, which renders both impotent.

[tackattack]

In addition are you really setting a standard if the standard keeps changing? The sheer maneuverability and being dependent on constraints of social contract moves the goal posts. I think it has contributed to younger generations getting a far more lenient moral standard, and for me social morality makes a poor target for personal betterment.

[Faith No More]

Then how do you explain the ten commandments? The bible is always preaching morality from rules and tells you not to make your own choice about certain acts. Why so clear on things like murder, lying, stealing, and even worshiping false idols, but so ambiguous on slavery?

Seems you could lump all those things together as clearly unhealthy. Slavery and it's parallels in modern society are in the secular realm and subjective. Is the imposed loss of liberty wrong? If we're treating prisoners fairly (not all western prisons have done so recently) is that following the biblical model inspired by God?

I guess this is where you and I must agree to disagree as I don't see the owning of a human being as being morally subjective. I conclude it is in the same realm of murder, which is never acceptable. This is why I have a problem that the bible merely sets guidelines for slavery, instead of wholly condemning it. And no I don't think we treat prisoners fairly, but that is besides the point. The point is that a circumstance can never be given in which the act of slavery would be considered just, yet things like lying and stealing can be. Why is the bible so black and white on the latter but is inept at dealing with the former? To deem slavery culturally subjective is to give the bible a pass for dropping the ball on an important moral issue. Slavery is never okay, regardless of the time or place.