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Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 8:12 am
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 8:15 am by Whirling Moat.)
Peace....
Many atheists I have come into contact with are people who were educated, typically above average as it relates to critical thinking, and go on from their college background to earn a relatively decent living. Atheism is not typically the poor, uneducated, lower intelligence persons disposition. But what if it was?
What if the message of Hitchens and Dawkins caught on to this demographic, how would it affect things like prostitution, drug use, home invasion, parenting, and despair as it relates to quality of life issues? Many low income, disenfranchised populations are pacified by the belief that they will receive their due in heaven, and that their greedy bosses and the rich in general will be punished for being so selfish on Earth..But what would happen when they came to grips with the reality that if they don't get it in this life, they will never see heaven? How would things changed if this group really understood that this is as good as it gets for them unless they take matters into their own hands?
Social order is contingent upon a social contract, when the poor feel as if the contract has been broken, many turn into rogues, however most turn to religion and allow God the role of Arbiter...God informs them of the next life and how good its gonna be and how He will judge the guilty..and of course it makes things a little easier to deal with for the poor and disenfranchised...Is it safe to liberate the minds of this population at this point in America knowing that there is little probabilty that things are gonna rapidly turn around for the poor and desperate?
Whirling Moat
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 8:51 am
So we should perpetuate a lie, just to feed the ignorance? Wha?
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 8:55 am
(May 13, 2011 at 8:12 am)Whirling Moat Wrote: Peace....
Many atheists I have come into contact with are people who were educated, typically above average as it relates to critical thinking, and go on from their college background to earn a relatively decent living. Atheism is not typically the poor, uneducated, lower intelligence persons disposition. But what if it was?
What if the message of Hitchens and Dawkins caught on to this demographic, how would it affect things like prostitution, drug use, home invasion, parenting, and despair as it relates to quality of life issues? Many low income, disenfranchised populations are pacified by the belief that they will receive their due in heaven, and that their greedy bosses and the rich in general will be punished for being so selfish on Earth..But what would happen when they came to grips with the reality that if they don't get it in this life, they will never see heaven? How would things changed if this group really understood that this is as good as it gets for them unless they take matters into their own hands?
Social order is contingent upon a social contract, when the poor feel as if the contract has been broken, many turn into rogues, however most turn to religion and allow God the role of Arbiter...God informs them of the next life and how good its gonna be and how He will judge the guilty..and of course it makes things a little easier to deal with for the poor and disenfranchised...Is it safe to liberate the minds of this population at this point in America knowing that there is little probabilty that things are gonna rapidly turn around for the poor and desperate?
Whirling Moat
WTF? Are you suggesting that only rich people can afford to disbelieve? I think you need to turn that around and think about who is exploiting the poor uneducated masses. If you look at it that way, I think you will find that it isn't the atheists doing the exploiting. Is it safe to liberate minds? Is it safe not to?
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 9:09 am
This is just another rehash of the old "atheists have no morals" argument, and as such, is completely bogus.
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 9:12 am
I thnk it's just meant to be an intellectual excercise, not nearly as inflamatory as the title suggests.
I think it would benefit society in the long term if people took more personal accountability in this life. It might be temporarily chaotic if the shift was as sudden as "Ok now let's mentally switch theist optimism and atheistic materialism populations now", but if it was as gradual as is normal for societies, it would be a tense adjustment period then better I'd think.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 9:18 am
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 10:08 am by Eudaimonia.)
(May 13, 2011 at 8:12 am)Whirling Moat Wrote: Peace....
Many atheists I have come into contact with are people who were educated, typically above average as it relates to critical thinking, and go on from their college background to earn a relatively decent living. Atheism is not typically the poor, uneducated, lower intelligence persons disposition. But what if it was?
What if the message of Hitchens and Dawkins caught on to this demographic, how would it affect things like prostitution, drug use, home invasion, parenting, and despair as it relates to quality of life issues? Many low income, disenfranchised populations are pacified by the belief that they will receive their due in heaven, and that their greedy bosses and the rich in general will be punished for being so selfish on Earth..But what would happen when they came to grips with the reality that if they don't get it in this life, they will never see heaven? How would things changed if this group really understood that this is as good as it gets for them unless they take matters into their own hands?
Social order is contingent upon a social contract, when the poor feel as if the contract has been broken, many turn into rogues, however most turn to religion and allow God the role of Arbiter...God informs them of the next life and how good its gonna be and how He will judge the guilty..and of course it makes things a little easier to deal with for the poor and disenfranchised...Is it safe to liberate the minds of this population at this point in America knowing that there is little probabilty that things are gonna rapidly turn around for the poor and desperate?
Whirling Moat
Ironically and with great caution I agree with you to some extent.. It is a unsettling uncomfortable truth that many people NEED religion like a drug until they slowly get through withdrawal.. I've witnessed people go backwards when they internally wrestle with the realization that there is no Daddy in the sky looking out for them.. I mean that's all they have in life....
People are not religious because they logically deduce it to be a good thing.. They are religious because it is their identity.. They are emotionally, traditionally and psychologically tied to the idea of a God.. To remove this idea without putting forth an alternative for many would mean psychosis..
But here is the thing.. Atheists are not doctors.. or psychologists.. and are not responsible for the God drug the public feeds upon.. I do think it would behoove us to be more careful if possible but I would not hold anyone responsible.. Not generally.. I leave that to those who seek or proclaim themselves enlightened leaders...
In addition, liberation of a mind should be the goal.. even in the face of the reality of that it may take some time..
I know men who have gotten off drugs.. stopped beating women.. and reduced their promiscuity when they became more religious.. Because they needed something to respect AND fear to aid their transformation..
As far as I know there is no alternative to this.. that is free, effective, immediate and generally supported by friends/family.. Also, many religious peoples sense of justice is wrapped up in their belief.. they see no hope for man adequately adjudicating fairness within society and pyschologically cope by believing that heaven will effect justice as it should be done.. (of course controlling for their own inability to adequately assess what justice "is"- possibly hampered by selfishness or greed)
The only thing we have to say to present to them is logic..
But logic is not what guides them..
Moat.. in spite of all of this the flaw I see in your argument is to suppress truth in favor of a lie in hopes of reducing casualties of the mind and less peace in society.. however, you have no evidence that this would happen en masse or enough to be destabilizing..
and even if you did.. It would not make God real.. true.. or necessary.. It would simply mean enlightened atheists would have to figure out what to do with those strung out on God drugs and continue to suffer delusions..
~Gday...
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 9:20 am
I disagree that "People are not religious because they logically deduce it to be a good thing.." and since you made the positive claim, please feel free to support that claim. I'm not claiming not to be bias free, but I found my current Christianity because it was logically sound.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 9:24 am
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 9:31 am by Eudaimonia.)
(May 13, 2011 at 9:20 am)tackattack Wrote: I disagree that "People are not religious because they logically deduce it to be a good thing.." and since you made the positive claim, please feel free to support that claim. I'm not claiming not to be bias free, but I found my current Christianity because it was logically sound.
Point taken.. I was speaking generally.. Most people do not come to acceptance of a religion after rejection and objective analysis.. They are born into a spiritual culture and remain spiritual throughout their lives without much reflection...
Would it be better to say "most"?
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 10:14 am
I'm in no way advocating criminality, but if people were to stop praying that some god would provide, and took responsibility for improving their situations, how would that be a bad thing? A large percentage of criminals are the poor, who have accepted this notion that taking what they want instead of earning it is acceptable. Implying that religion in any way prevents it is a clear disregard for the evidence. People need to believe in each other, not sky papa.
"In our youth, we lacked the maturity, the decency to create gods better than ourselves so that we might have something to aspire to. Instead we are left with a host of deities who were violent, narcissistic, vengeful bullies who reflected our own values. Our gods could have been anything we could imagine, and all we were capable of manifesting were gods who shared the worst of our natures."-Me
"Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men." – Francis Bacon
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RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 10:40 am
@ Eudaimonia - can you statsically back that up? maybe it would be better if you said. Those that blindly accept their dogma, or those that never question their faith and lose it.
I was a part of the generally accepting and not thinking group, which is why I became an atheist eventually. That method is not however is not why I have chosen to be a theist now. But you can say it how you want, it's your opinion.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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