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(June 17, 2011 at 2:37 pm)Stue Denim Wrote: I'm agnostic on the deistic concepts, Gnostic atheist on the christian god concepts.
he did type God... (and was talking about faith(belief) and not knowledge, which is what agnosticism concerns)
I am too, but he as already clarified in other threads and posts that he is agnostic on the christian god.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(June 13, 2011 at 8:01 am)tackattack Wrote: You can call it what you like. You're saying I can't have doubts and faith, which I've shown is categorically wrong. My entire belief does not break from one moment of doubt, because doubt is an instance and belief is a collection of congruent and fortified instances. I will answer your question. I am as close to a gnostic 100% belief that God exists as I could get to anything. For instance I support the statement that If I know anything that is real or useful, it is that God exists. I equate my level/intensity of faith with my belief in gravity. I "know" if I throw an apple up it will fall, There are instances that could make that not happen (ie. in space or an anti-gravity chamber), but for all practical usefulness and purposes, the apple falls and God exists for me. I have instances of doubts just as it's possible for the apple not to fall, but there's a proven track record of personally reliable information supporting his existence for me.
Diffidus:
Yes - and you can show me the apple falling at any time I request it. But you cannot show me your God.
Aberfan is a tiny mining community in Wales UK. In 1966 the little children of this small town had gone to school in the morning as usual. They went into the assembly hall, for the usual routine announcements, which finished in the usual manner, with a Hymn. There little innocent voices could be heard from outside:
"All things bright and beautiful
All creatures great and small
All things bright and wonderful
The Lord God made them all"
Shortly after this, a rumbling sound was heard and a huge mountain of slag avalanched on top of the school killing 116 school children, many young infants, and also a number of teachers and other adults. The rescue attempts were desperate - parents were screaming and digging the slag with there bare hands. Some parents lost there entire family of children.
God has sufficient power that he could have nudged the slag heap a couple of hours earlier, before the school children arrived. Imagine if you had such power, what would you do?
I find it hard to have faith in a God that has such power but just stood there and watched!!
You can pull the appeal to emotinalism anytime, it really doesn't make any difference to me. But perhaps you'll understand why I ignore it, we're talking about the etymology of faith and belief. I clearly showed you where they are not mutually exclusive and for the third time you ignore it. Very intellectually dishonest. Then you ask for material (show me/ let me see it) evidence for the immaterial. Capped off with an emotional appeal about kids dying... really this isn't worth anymore of my time. Stick to the topic and show some courage and conviction of ideals before we discuss again, maybe then I'll answer more questions.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
June 18, 2011 at 5:47 am (This post was last modified: June 18, 2011 at 5:49 am by diffidus.)
(June 18, 2011 at 2:13 am)tackattack Wrote:
(June 17, 2011 at 1:31 pm)diffidus Wrote:
(June 13, 2011 at 8:01 am)tackattack Wrote: You can call it what you like. You're saying I can't have doubts and faith, which I've shown is categorically wrong. My entire belief does not break from one moment of doubt, because doubt is an instance and belief is a collection of congruent and fortified instances. I will answer your question. I am as close to a gnostic 100% belief that God exists as I could get to anything. For instance I support the statement that If I know anything that is real or useful, it is that God exists. I equate my level/intensity of faith with my belief in gravity. I "know" if I throw an apple up it will fall, There are instances that could make that not happen (ie. in space or an anti-gravity chamber), but for all practical usefulness and purposes, the apple falls and God exists for me. I have instances of doubts just as it's possible for the apple not to fall, but there's a proven track record of personally reliable information supporting his existence for me.
Diffidus:
Yes - and you can show me the apple falling at any time I request it. But you cannot show me your God.
Aberfan is a tiny mining community in Wales UK. In 1966 the little children of this small town had gone to school in the morning as usual. They went into the assembly hall, for the usual routine announcements, which finished in the usual manner, with a Hymn. There little innocent voices could be heard from outside:
"All things bright and beautiful
All creatures great and small
All things bright and wonderful
The Lord God made them all"
Shortly after this, a rumbling sound was heard and a huge mountain of slag avalanched on top of the school killing 116 school children, many young infants, and also a number of teachers and other adults. The rescue attempts were desperate - parents were screaming and digging the slag with there bare hands. Some parents lost there entire family of children.
God has sufficient power that he could have nudged the slag heap a couple of hours earlier, before the school children arrived. Imagine if you had such power, what would you do?
I find it hard to have faith in a God that has such power but just stood there and watched!!
You can pull the appeal to emotinalism anytime, it really doesn't make any difference to me. But perhaps you'll understand why I ignore it, we're talking about the etymology of faith and belief. I clearly showed you where they are not mutually exclusive and for the third time you ignore it. Very intellectually dishonest. Then you ask for material (show me/ let me see it) evidence for the immaterial. Capped off with an emotional appeal about kids dying... really this isn't worth anymore of my time. Stick to the topic and show some courage and conviction of ideals before we discuss again, maybe then I'll answer more questions.
Diffidus:
There is no emotional appeal only cold hard facts. These facts may evoke an emotion in you, but they are facts. I notice that I give you facts and you give me some irrelevant academic argument about the difference between faith and belief - a point that I didn't even question in my post.
The reality is: I pose a real question about real events in the world and you have no answer to it. So I will ask again - why did God stand and watch the Aberfan disaster?
Anymouse
Worshipper of Caffeinea, Goddess of Coffee.
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(June 5, 2011 at 5:20 pm)Pel Wrote: I agree that those disasters happen but I don't believe he is evil and I still love him and that's faith.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)
If it is the Christian version of deity that you speak, your Bible refutes your position.
"Be ye not lost amongst Precept of Order." - Book of Uterus, 1:5, "Principia Discordia, or How I Found Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her."
June 18, 2011 at 6:10 am (This post was last modified: June 18, 2011 at 6:14 am by diffidus.)
(June 17, 2011 at 2:26 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote:
(June 17, 2011 at 1:31 pm)diffidus Wrote: I find it hard to have faith in a God that has such power but just stood there and watched!!
Then why hold onto agnosticism?
Diffidus:
Imagine a close friend returned from a journey and told you that he had seen a strange new land that does not appear on any map or in any book. You eventually try to find the land but it cannot be found. Does that mean it does not exist? Surely you are left in a suspended state. It is not a state of having faith or having no faith, it is simply a state of 'parking the idea'. Maybe my friend was delusional, maybe there really is such a land, I really don't know.
(June 18, 2011 at 5:54 am)Anymouse Wrote:
(June 5, 2011 at 5:20 pm)Pel Wrote: I agree that those disasters happen but I don't believe he is evil and I still love him and that's faith.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)
If it is the Christian version of deity that you speak, your Bible refutes your position.
Diffidus:
But why did He stand and watch the Aberfan disaster? If you had the power, what would you have done?
Anymouse
Worshipper of Caffeinea, Goddess of Coffee.
Religious Views: Atheist (formerly Wiccan, with a Discordian bent). Erotic Romance novel editor. Handfasted to BethK, the smartest, coolest, sexiest, brightest atheist here.
Posts: 544
Threads: 62
Joined: May 25, 2011
Reputation:
15
June 18, 2011 at 6:16 am (This post was last modified: June 18, 2011 at 6:18 am by Anymouse.)
(June 18, 2011 at 6:10 am)diffidus Wrote: But why did He stand and watch the Aberfan disaster? If you had the power, what would you have done?
I dunno, I'm not a Christian, nor have I ever been. Must be that part about "creating evil" in Isaiah. Maybe he did it?
"Be ye not lost amongst Precept of Order." - Book of Uterus, 1:5, "Principia Discordia, or How I Found Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her."
June 18, 2011 at 6:22 am (This post was last modified: June 18, 2011 at 6:29 am by Darth.)
So in summary the accident would suggest that the omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient being claimed by some isn't real. But the accident does nothing to suggest that the god the bible portays does not exist, as it allows for evil, sends it, sows dischord and disharmony, destroys, exterminates, murders... . The problem of evil is no problem for an evil god.
(June 18, 2011 at 6:10 am)diffidus Wrote: Imagine a close friend returned from a journey and told you that he had seen a strange new land that does not appear on any map or in any book. You eventually try to find the land but it cannot be found. Does that mean it does not exist? Surely you are left in a suspended state. It is not a state of having faith or having no faith, it is simply a state of 'parking the idea'. Maybe my friend was delusional, maybe there really is such a land, I really don't know.
Which is why you ask that friend details about the land and if it is completely implausible you can dismiss it wholeheartedly.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
