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(June 17, 2011 at 4:18 am)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: You know... why can't we have an explosive god? Much more interesting than a contradictory god.
I mean... look at it this way: I"m a hypocrite. And that's not even slightly interesting. But I'm not explosive. That would make me front page news.
So I wan't to see an explosive god. Would be all the rage in the papers.
OK, what shall explosive god be called?
I'll start by offering the great god " Fart ", as in the definition of explosive-
" bursting out with violence and noise "
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
OK bozo and Sae, please try and keep it on topic. I appreciate the occasional distraction, but it's to the point of a distraction now.
(June 17, 2011 at 6:38 am)colubridae Wrote:
tackattack Wrote:2-Your reasons for your bigotry are irrelevant as
Quote:Bigotry
1. Obstinately convinced of the superiority or correctness of one's own opinions and prejudiced against those who hold different opinions.
2. Expressing or characterized by prejudice and intolerance.
I may not have been clear, sorry. I have perfectly good reasons for hating ‘religion’. True I didn’t give you them, you may actually argue with them. But in my book bigotry means not having valid reasons for one’s view. Hating something doesn’t make me a bigot, if my reasons are valid.
I am not ‘obstinately convinced’. I have perfectly sound reasons for my hatred. They are much the same as laid out by Dawkins and Hitchens. If you want to argue them that’s fine.
If you can convince me that god exists or that religion is benign, then I will readily change my mind.
My morals are far superior to your religion’s morals. Debate it if you wish. I am not intolerant of gays. I don’t demand kowtowing and knee-bending to my presence. I don’t demand worship. I don’t demand than you eschew other gods. I don’t pretend to eat someone’s flesh and drink their blood.
You however have no verifiable evidence for your belief other than your ‘feelings’. Nothing I say to you will convince you that you are wrong. Not now, not ever.
By your own definition then you are a bigot.
I apologised for a false accusation, can you?
tackattack Wrote:2-Your reasons for your bigotry are irrelevant as
So anything I hate, whether justified or not, is bigotry. Reasons are irrelevant?
So is it bigotry to hate stoning of adulterers? I have perfectly good reasons for hating muslim execution practices, but they are irrelevant? What piffle.
I assume you wrote this nonsense with reflex anger. I would be very interested to know if this was the case or not.
tackattack Wrote:3- Your opinion of me matters even less than care about your "evidence" and I'll answer your question only because it was directed to me, not to pander to your ego. I do not believe religion or morality should be taught in public schools. It should be reserved for Churches and homes. Private schools can do what the parents pay them for.
That’s not what I asked. Let me re-phrase it for you. Do you believe that Christian dogma/doctrine should be taught to children under the age of 18.
The point being that they will be unable to make a valid assessment during their formative years for such dogma. Much of which is based on fear and repression.
Churches should teach morality, are you serious?
If you analyse the bible and list the things that god does most frequently then:-
top of the list - He kills people
Second on the list - He tells people to kill other people.
Appearing to the faithful and conjuring universes come way down the list.
This is your basis for morality? And you call me a bigot?
Sheesh kebab
edit added 'most frequently' for sense
(June 17, 2011 at 8:00 am)colubridae Wrote:
To tackattack
I have been appallingly nasty to you and I apologise.
I have let my disgust of religion become personal.
If you wish to discuss religious matters, I am happy to do so, as long as you understand my position.
If you wish it I will leave you alone.
:flowers:
"anything I hate, whether justified or not, is bigotry. Reasons are irrelevant?" yes and yes. I'm bigoted about anyone who would rape a child. I've expressed it and I don't think anyone can change it. That makes me a bigot. How rational or justified it is doesn't matter. I obstinately hold to a prejudice or intolerance. Mine, in this case, is based off of someone's actions, not their beliefs. I also feel it is a socially acceptable justified position. Hating a group of people for their beliefs, however certain members of that group have affected you or whatever your reasons, I feel is not only bigotry, but irrational bigotry. If you're going to hate a group of people, why not make is a group of people you've actually interacted with? I'm not aware of any group of people I claim to hate, based on their beliefs or ideals. Do I admit I'm a bigot? yes. Is it more rational that yours.. in this case I believe yes.
You haven't been nasty to me, but I'll accept your flowered apology. Mainly because this probably isn't the first time you've let your disgust of religion bias you blindly. Now stop all of this personal banter and onto the points. I'll restate the ones you ignored and renumber for clarity.
1- You falsely assume my religious morality. I'll list some of my relevant morality (that stem from my religion not from my subjective morality): I am not intolerant of gays. I'm not forced to kowtow or knee-bend to my God, the motto of our church is "come as you are". My God doesn’t demand worship. I offer it freely for what he does for me. There are no other God's I'm aware of, or have experienced, at this time. I don’t pretend to eat someone’s flesh and drink their blood.
2- I have plenty of subjective experience, rational understanding and logical conclusions for my belief. You could however convince me it is irrational or illogical, I'm completely open to being wrong. I've been wrong many times before.
3- I responded to your omnimax on page 2 which you said nothing about here .
4-Omnimax is in the urban dictionary and there is a wiki entry for it. It's quite common and not nearly as "made up" as you want to make it out to be. As far as tautology, I only use the term omnipotent in a circle of believers or theologians. None of them believe that one word or concept could ever encompass God and realize it's a loosely defined shorthand for what we understand of God's power.
You have not made a case that any Christian, much less anyone you can find here, believes that God has the power to anything even the logically impossible.
5-"Do you believe that Christian dogma/doctrine should be taught to children under the age of 18?" Yes, I believe morality, accountability, problem solving, rationality, logic and decision making skill should be taught and developed all of their lives but specifically from the age of reason on directly. They can make valid assessments if given more than a one sided approach. I teach
Sunday school for instance. I teach from our Church's viewpoint, my viewpoint , other religious viewpoints and encourage questions and critical thinking. I try not to base anything I do on fear and repression.
6- The attributes of God isn't what makes me Christian, nor any other Christian a Christian. Being a Christian comes down to something really simple: Reliance on the character, teaching and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. We can argue all our lives on whether God is Good, ambivalent, hateful, greedy or whatever, and it wouldn't make one iota of difference to most Christians, because by definition it is unknowable. Stick to what you can argue and work on that.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Too many points for one post, I propose going over them one at a time.
tackattack Wrote:"anything I hate, whether justified or not, is bigotry. Reasons are irrelevant?" yes and yes. I'm bigoted about anyone who would rape a child. I've expressed it and I don't think anyone can change it. That makes me a bigot. How rational or justified it is doesn't matter. I obstinately hold to a prejudice or intolerance. Mine, in this case, is based off of someone's actions, not their beliefs. I also feel it is a socially acceptable justified position.
This is nasty little trick. My reasons are absolutely concerned with actions not beliefs.
tackattack Wrote:Hating a group of people for their beliefs, however certain members of that group have affected you or whatever your reasons, I feel is not only bigotry, but irrational bigotry. If you're going to hate a group of people, why not make is a group of people you've actually interacted with?
I don’t like to be called a bigot, especially when my hatred is justified. Especially when you allow bigotry for yourself, then calmly justify it, using your own standards.
You are wrong for the following reasons.
1 I never told you ‘why’ my view of religion and religious people. So how in the world can you claim that my reasons are irrational? Especially when later on you accuse me of ”falsely assuming your religious morality”
2 I most definitely have interacted with religious people. In my childhood I had Christianity inflicted on me, whilst too young to make a rational rejection, well before I had suitable critical skills able to detect the nonsense in it. I have suffered all my life with a sense of being a bad person simply for thinking logically about Christian nonsense. Had I the necessary thinking skills at the time I was forcefed I would have easily rejected it. Were I able to face the people responsible now they would feel the full force of my bitter anger. Wholly justified anger. Or do you still insist that inflicting beliefs on children is justified, even when I now tell you that I personally find what was done to me offensive?
3 Should I re-list the endless evil inflicted on the world by religion? Even though much of it has not interacted with me I am still justified in condemning it and the group of people who espouse it. My bigotry of theist is not based on their beliefs. If I gave that impression, It certainly was not meant. My bigotry is based on their actions. Their nonsense beliefs conjure up scorn and ridicule, not hatred. In the same way I would ridicule ‘flat-earth-ers’.
tackattack Wrote:I'm not aware of any group of people I claim to hate, based on their beliefs or ideals. Do I admit I'm a bigot? yes. Is it more rational that yours.. in this case I believe yes.
And your view of, say, the KKK. Would this be as irrational as my view of religion.
I daresay you could find plenty of KKK members who have done nice things. I haven’t interacted with any of them either. (most of the KKK’s dogma is religion based)
My bigotry of the KKK is exactly as you have described above, do you think I am not justified.
This is nasty little trick. My reasons are absolutely concerned with actions not beliefs.
I don’t like to be called a bigot, especially when my hatred is justified. Especially when you allow bigotry for yourself, then calmly justify it, using your own standards.
You are wrong for the following reasons.
1 I never told you ‘why’ my view of religion and religious people. So how in the world can you claim that my reasons are irrational? Especially when later on you accuse me of ”falsely assuming your religious morality”
2 I most definitely have interacted with religious people. In my childhood I had Christianity inflicted on me, whilst too young to make a rational rejection, well before I had suitable critical skills able to detect the nonsense in it. I have suffered all my life with a sense of being a bad person simply for thinking logically about Christian nonsense. Had I the necessary thinking skills at the time I was forcefed I would have easily rejected it. Were I able to face the people responsible now they would feel the full force of my bitter anger. Wholly justified anger. Or do you still insist that inflicting beliefs on children is justified, even when I now tell you that I personally find what was done to me offensive?
3 Should I re-list the endless evil inflicted on the world by religion? Even though much of it has not interacted with me I am still justified in condemning it and the group of people who espouse it. My bigotry of theist is not based on their beliefs. If I gave that impression, It certainly was not meant. My bigotry is based on their actions. Their nonsense beliefs conjure up scorn and ridicule, not hatred. In the same way I would ridicule ‘flat-earth-ers’.
And your view of, say, the KKK. Would this be as irrational as my view of religion.
I daresay you could find plenty of KKK members who have done nice things. I haven’t interacted with any of them either. (most of the KKK’s dogma is religion based)
My bigotry of the KKK is exactly as you have described above, do you think I am not justified.
It's not a trick. I'm sorry you don't like being called a bigot. Perhaps the connotation is a but much for you? How about we say we're both prejudiced. The point was about what you're targeting, actions or ideas.
Your reason are irrelevant as I said so point one is out the window.
Point 2. I'm sorry you have felt guilt all of your life. I'm sorry you were taught things as a child you no longer agree with. I'm sure it causes you emotional pain. Could you please explain how someone can make you feel something. Bottom line, you believed something, you now don't. I understand you placing some responsibility on them, how long did you still believe after age 7-8? Do you accept personal responsibility for that? They shared their beliefs, you believed , now you don't and feel slighted? scornful? guilty? Even if they did more than just share their beliefs I don't see that as justifying hatred towards all Christians. Be clear you're an antitheist, which is just as irrational as the kkk
Point 3. Speaking of the KKK I have no problems with them as people or individuals. I don't personally know anyone sho is publicly, but it wouldn't really affect my opinions of them. I however will have a lesser opinion of them if they show racism, intolerance and hatred (individually). That doesn't mean I automatically hate all KKK members, which is what you're under the assumption I do, because of your comparison. Even if I thought that all KKK members, were racists and bigots I still couldn't hate them all for just their beliefs. If every single one went curb checking black people then I would probably have a reason to hate each one, that's an action, that I could hate. Raising more little racist bastards is a reason to pity them, not hate them, IMO.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
tackattack Wrote:It's not a trick. I'm sorry you don't like being called a bigot. Perhaps the connotation is a bit much for you? How about we say we're both prejudiced. The point was about what you're targeting, actions or ideas.
Your reason are irrelevant as I said so point one is out the window.
Let’s make sure I don’t misunderstand then. Call it bigotry, prejudice if you like. My reasons are concerned with actions and beliefs. Though most importantly to do with actions. So long as my ‘bigotry’ with religion has equal validity with your ‘bigotry’ of child molesters I am satisfied.
tackattack Wrote:Point 2. I'm sorry you have felt guilt all of your life. I'm sorry you were taught things as a child you no longer agree with. I'm sure it causes you emotional pain. Could you please explain how someone can make you feel something. Bottom line, you believed something, you now don't. I understand you placing some responsibility on them, how long did you still believe after age 7-8? Do you accept personal responsibility for that? They shared their beliefs, you believed , now you don't and feel slighted? scornful? guilty? Even if they did more than just share their beliefs I don't see that as justifying hatred towards all Christians.
Missing the point by several miles. The stuff I was taught should not have been taught to me until I was old enough to think about it critically. Neither you, nor anyone, have the right to teach this dangerous, awful stuff to children. It is little short of child abuse. Your ‘sorry’ is welcome but not needed. Stop continuing the practice is what‘s needed.
By all means you can proselytise when they are old enough. Preach away to your heart’s content. I doubt you will get anywhere, but it would be fun to watch.
tackattack Wrote:I understand you placing some responsibility on them
No. I place all responsibility on them. Of course I believed. I trusted what adults told me. I was too young to see that it was nonsense. That’s what this point is all about. You are using your adulthood to abuse children with these ideas. Wait until they are of an age then try.
If you want to teach them moral values tell them it’s good to do good things. Not because you get to heaven if you’re good or hell if you’re bad. Tell them to be moral because it’s the right thing to do. Tell them to be moral because it’s the human thing to do. Leave the god shit out until they are older, otherwise it’s abuse.
tackattack Wrote:Do you accept personal responsibility for that?
Why the hell should I take responsibility for something that was done to me without my consent?
tackattack Wrote:They shared their beliefs, you believed , now you don't and feel slighted? scornful? guilty?
No. They forced their ideas down my throat when I was unable to resist. They did it with ‘kindness’ and they thought they were doing the ‘right’ thing. So what, It was still abuse.
tackattack Wrote:Even if they did more than just share their beliefs I don't see that as justifying hatred towards all Christians
I think you are demonstrating precisely why. Despite what I’ve explained to you, you still think that you are not an abuser. You still have no doubt that inflicting this stuff on young children is a good thing. I think you are probably one of the ‘nicer’ ones, but look at what you are doing. Can you see my justification now? You are simply taking the standpoint that your beliefs are benign, they aren’t. There’s plenty of evidence for malignancy. Inflicting this garbage on young children cannot be called ‘sharing beliefs’. Please get that misconception out of your head.
tackattack Wrote:Be clear you're an antitheist, which is just as irrational as the kkk
Absolutely no doubt about it, antitheist. Absolutely rational. Stop throwing out gratuitous red herrings.
Here’s some rationale
There is no evidence for god, anymore than there is evidence for pink unicorns.
“lack of evidence is evidence of lack”
Your Christianity does plenty of harm by the actions of its members base on the holy book.
E.g. hatred of gays. Inspired by your holy book.
Your holy book is inconsistent with reality and inconsistent with itself on virtually every page. You’re teaching it as if it’s real.
tackattack Wrote:Point 3. Speaking of the KKK I have no problems with them as people or individuals. I don't personally know anyone sho is publicly, but it wouldn't really affect my opinions of them. I however will have a lesser opinion of them if they show racism, intolerance and hatred (individually). That doesn't mean I automatically hate all KKK members, which is what you're under the assumption I do, because of your comparison. Even if I thought that all KKK members, were racists and bigots I still couldn't hate them all for just their beliefs. If every single one went curb checking black people then I would probably have a reason to hate each one, that's an action, that I could hate. Raising more little racist bastards is a reason to pity them, not hate them, IMO.
What’s this? Theist dodgeball. The five ‘D’ of theist dodgeball Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive and… Dodge.
“Beliefs guide our actions”. If you think they don’t, then you are being irrational.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
