religion as an aspect of human nature deriving from the language we use
July 26, 2011 at 12:02 pm
(This post was last modified: July 26, 2011 at 1:03 pm by Whateverist.)
This is the second of three excerpts from her appearance on Bill Moyers' "Faith and Reason" for television (2006). I find her perspective unusual as she claims to have been raised a "strict agnostic". From what I can tell, most (though not all) of the people here on the forums were raised with some sort of religion and had to escape, myself included. She will piss some of you off when she goes on to say atheism is a religion in that it claims to have certain knowledge about god. (To that I can only say "whatever", some questions of semantics are more fruitful than others.)
I appreciate what she says about language and how our sort of language leads to the 'hunger for god'. She seems to believe that using the language we do (as opposed to the sort dogs use for example) inevitably leads to tales of origins and final destinations that go beyond the knowable. (Maybe, whatever.)
Then she makes a nice point about the subjective reality of god/religion at about 1:47 minutes. While she would hold back the word "knowledge" to only that which can be repeatably demonstrated, there are subjective experiences which can not be collectively demonstrated but which we would never deny. "I spoke to god" can be at least as real as "I had a dream", within the subjective reality of the person doing the dreaming. While we would all grant you your dream, most of us would probably say "you were dreaming" about the conversation with the deity.
Atheism seems to be on sure footing when it comes to science and verifiable knowledge. But it seems a lot less nimble when it comes to providing a robust accounting of human subjective experience. This is the question that still interests me. While religious experience has no place in the realm of knowledge, it undeniably has a place in the subjective experience of many people and has for a very long time.
Of course it is important to end religious intolerance and violence, but the tendency to feel smug about ones own position and hatred toward those who don't or won't share it did not arise with religion. It is human nature, though no bragging point. But there is also the phenomena of the meaning and fulfillment a good number of intelligent people claim to draw from religious experience to be accounted for. That baby may not have to go out with the bath water.
Anyhow, now I'm just rambling on about what I think but suffice to say I find much of what Margaret Atwood has to say in this interview interesting in helping pursue these ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmVD7XcRb6Y
Sorry if the video doesn't appear directly. I'm not too technologically savvy. Just in case here is the url too.
http://youtu.be/QmVD7XcRb6Y
I appreciate what she says about language and how our sort of language leads to the 'hunger for god'. She seems to believe that using the language we do (as opposed to the sort dogs use for example) inevitably leads to tales of origins and final destinations that go beyond the knowable. (Maybe, whatever.)
Then she makes a nice point about the subjective reality of god/religion at about 1:47 minutes. While she would hold back the word "knowledge" to only that which can be repeatably demonstrated, there are subjective experiences which can not be collectively demonstrated but which we would never deny. "I spoke to god" can be at least as real as "I had a dream", within the subjective reality of the person doing the dreaming. While we would all grant you your dream, most of us would probably say "you were dreaming" about the conversation with the deity.
Atheism seems to be on sure footing when it comes to science and verifiable knowledge. But it seems a lot less nimble when it comes to providing a robust accounting of human subjective experience. This is the question that still interests me. While religious experience has no place in the realm of knowledge, it undeniably has a place in the subjective experience of many people and has for a very long time.
Of course it is important to end religious intolerance and violence, but the tendency to feel smug about ones own position and hatred toward those who don't or won't share it did not arise with religion. It is human nature, though no bragging point. But there is also the phenomena of the meaning and fulfillment a good number of intelligent people claim to draw from religious experience to be accounted for. That baby may not have to go out with the bath water.
Anyhow, now I'm just rambling on about what I think but suffice to say I find much of what Margaret Atwood has to say in this interview interesting in helping pursue these ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmVD7XcRb6Y
Sorry if the video doesn't appear directly. I'm not too technologically savvy. Just in case here is the url too.
http://youtu.be/QmVD7XcRb6Y
