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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:03 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 10:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: See, heres the catch, the idea that animals, as fellow creatures, have rights, and we should avoid harming them whenever possible is great. Except that to avoid harming them would sometimes lead to harming human beings (also animals), as is the case with prohibiting their use in medical tests. The very same sentiment used to protect certain animals can also be leveraged to justify harming them. Not so cut and dry.
Oh it's certainly not cut and dry and I don't pretend it is, when I go out for a walk I probably kill shit loads of animals without even realising it. I just do my best as far as is practical to reduce suffering.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:06 pm
I understand. Without going into a massive screed, the only way that we stop using animal byproducts, honestly, is to just hang up the towel and kill ourselves. To the very last man. Then the animals (ourselves excluded)could just go back to the business of being cruel to each other. Animal rights utopia.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:12 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 10:45 pm)Skeptic Wrote: human cadavers are very useful
If you want to test the effects of a drug on a corpse... Testing the interaction with the metabolism is one of if not the most important aspects of animal testing, you can't get those results from a cadaver.
Quote: I believe as well as computer modelling.
Except the models are far from complete, they can only test the effects of well known compounds in well known circumstances, you wouldn't be able to make many breakthroughs at all.
Quote:Of course, animal research isn't going to end instantly so there's plenty of time for transition to non animal based research.
That rests on the assumption that we should transition to begin with... Frankly I couldn't care less about some rats in a cage, unless they can benefit me in some way, then I care about them to the extent they can assist human progress.
Quote: To assume that little Timmy's condition can't be solved without animal research or that it even would be solved with animal research is just an assumption.
As is the notion that corpses and computers can fill the void.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:15 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 11:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I understand. Without going into a massive screed, the only way that we stop using animal byproducts, honestly, is to just hang up the towel and kill ourselves. To the very last man. Then the animals (ourselves excluded)could just go back to the business of being cruel to each other. Animal rights utopia.
I think people could stop using animal biproducts if they wanted to.
Animals are cruel to each other but I don't think that's a justification for us to kill them.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:15 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 11:38 pm by theVOID.)
(August 21, 2011 at 11:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I understand. Without going into a massive screed, the only way that we stop using animal byproducts, honestly, is to just hang up the towel and kill ourselves. To the very last man. Then the animals (ourselves excluded)could just go back to the business of being cruel to each other. Animal rights utopia.
When was the last time you saw PETA protest Lions for killing gazelles? 
They're like the anti-abortion goons who say "abortion is murder" yet don't actually want to charge people with murder - I think they're lost in the de-ontological judgements made by their brains, their utilitarian functions are crippled or something.
(August 21, 2011 at 11:15 pm)Skeptic Wrote: I think people could stop using animal biproducts if they wanted to.
Do you think Humanity would be where we are now if we never ate meat, used hide for clothing and shelter, used bone for tools? No, we'd be extinct, we never would have got out of Africa.
Quote:Animals are cruel to each other but I don't think that's a justification for us to kill them.
Suppose a stray animal is going to kill your pet and the only way you can stop it is to shoot the stray. Do you not find that to be "justification" based on animal cruelty?
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:40 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 11:48 pm by Skeptic.)
(August 21, 2011 at 11:12 pm)theVOID Wrote: That rests on the assumption that we should transition to begin with... Frankly I couldn't care less about some rats in a cage, unless they can benefit me in some way, then I care about them to the extent they can assist human progress.
If by 'we' you mean everyone then it'd probably never happen, fortunately not everyone is like you.
(August 21, 2011 at 11:15 pm)theVOID Wrote: I think people could stop using animal biproducts if they wanted to.
(August 21, 2011 at 11:12 pm)theVOID Wrote: Do you think Humanity would be where we are now if we never ate meat, used hide for clothing and shelter, used bone for tools? No, we'd be extinct, we never would have got out of Africa.
What's your point? We probably wouldn't be where we are if we hadn't blown the shit out of each other in numerous wars which is where much of our innovation has come from.
Quote:Animals are cruel to each other but I don't think that's a justification for us to kill them.
(August 21, 2011 at 11:12 pm)theVOID Wrote: Suppose a stray animal is going to kill your pet and the only way you can stop it is to shoot the stray. Do you not find that to be "justification" based on animal cruelty?
Yes it probably would be, it's not a religion. I just do my best to reduce suffering.
Why are you being so defensive?
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:45 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 11:40 pm)Skeptic Wrote: If by 'we' you mean everyone then it'd probably never happen, fortunately not everyone is like you.
'We' was referring to the people who support a practice you take issue with. You've given me no convincing reason why we should stop testing pharmaceuticals on animals.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:46 pm
Um...do you realize how much animal byproduct is in EVERYTHING you use everyday?
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:50 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2011 at 11:52 pm by Skeptic.)
(August 21, 2011 at 11:46 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: Um...do you realize how much animal byproduct is in EVERYTHING you use everyday?
More than you know, I try to minimise it.
(August 21, 2011 at 11:45 pm)theVOID Wrote: (August 21, 2011 at 11:40 pm)Skeptic Wrote: If by 'we' you mean everyone then it'd probably never happen, fortunately not everyone is like you.
'We' was referring to the people who support a practice you take issue with. You've given me no convincing reason why we should stop testing pharmaceuticals on animals.
Did I tell you not to support animal testing? No, I just said that I don't.
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RE: Cucumber Dildo
August 21, 2011 at 11:52 pm
(August 21, 2011 at 11:40 pm)Skeptic Wrote: What's your point? We probably wouldn't be where we are if we hadn't blown the shit out of each other in numerous wars.
My point is that while it may be possible for some people to choose to not use animal products in a modern society such a society wouldn't exist without the initial use of animal products - Your dream of some vegan utopia is entirely contingent upon prior use of animal products.
Quote:Yes it probably would be, it's not a religion. I just do my best to reduce suffering.
Hang on... What exactly is religion supposed to have to do with anything?
So you want to reduce suffering? Given that animal testing does in fact achieve this end aren't you being a bit disingenuous here?
Quote:Why are you being so defensive?
Are you kidding me?
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