Josh McDowell

[Thor]

I know that someone who only reads the Bible to mock it wouldn't understand what it's saying, in the first place.

Christian fallacy #2 - "You don't understand what the Bible is saying!"

Uh, yeah, we do. And it's BECAUSE we understand what the Bible is saying that causes us to reject it as the work of primitive, misogynistic ignoramuses.

I know that you have your reasons for not believing

Our "reasons for not believing" are quite simple... you have no evidence to support your outrageous claims. Do you believe the claims of the Koran? Why not? What makes your Bible believable and the Koran not?

No one is a mistake.

No one? Really? Hitler wasn't a mistake? Pol Pot? Jeffrey Dahmer?

He has a plan for you, something that only you can achieve and that you will doing.

So God's plan was for Hitler to cause a world war and kill tens of millions? And you really think we should worship this being?

Have you ever considered that God sees you in double vision?

Have you ever considered that "God" is a figment of your imagination?

do any of you know how to rationally consider something?

I'm guessing the irony of this statement is lost on you.

If any of you were truly seeking the Lord, he would have already shown up for you as he did for me.

Most of us here were believers at some point in our lives (including me). This deity you speak of never "showed up" for any of us. So why should we think he's not fiction?

It's when you want God to submit to your rules that he doesn't show up, why should he?

Why should he? How about to demonstrate that he truly exists? You would think he would want skeptics to know that he's really there!

You wouldn't recognize him, so he waits until you really want to know him, and he appears.

Unsupported claim.

[KichigaiNeko]

Sorry salty you are misunderstanding there...

But then you DO believe in that silly fantasy story don't you??

The only 'higher power' is a universse that couldn't give a shit about you or your infantile fantasies or Rhythm's opinion for that matter (nor mine)

You are reminded that you are on an Atheist Forum. We have already heard everything you could possibly say regarding the abrahamic religions and probably know more than you about them.... You appear to be on an evangelistic mission to convert the 'Ungodly' ....namely atheists.. it ain't gonna work.

[The Grand Nudger]

Whether or not I'd bow has no effect on somethings existence Salty. You're right, I would like you to agree with me, it would be wonderful if the whole world abandoned superstition for something more useful. At least abandon it's practices and ignore it's conclusions while we get on with the business of actually learning about our cosmos (if you just absolutely can't breathe without it). That being said, I would miss the low hanging fruit, and my days would drag on endlessly.

[salty]

That's because there is no answer that will satiate your desire to "understand" Christianity. If there was your questions would have been answered a long time ago. People who seek to understand, understand, people who seek to mock, misunderstand and mock. I agree, that's a big number.

I understand perfectly well. It's just unlike you, I want evidence. You cannot provide that. Also I don't presuppose anything like you do. Evidence first not baseless assertions. You don't have to believe in something in order to understand it.
Besides all religions deserve to be mocked. Such funny, strange and crazy beliefs.

I definitely agree that you do not have to believe in something in order to understand it. I respectfully disagree on many points with a Buddhist I know, I respectfully disagree on many points with an atheist I know (in person) and yet, I never once ask for evidence for their beliefs, instead if I'm interesting in pursuing something they tell me I ask them about their source and evaluate the source in my own time. Have any of you given the Bible a fair evaluation, reviewing the evidence with respectful evaluation? Recently I have been learning about Buddhism, while I study Japan, and I find many of the things I discover interesting, there's wisdom in it, I respect it, I'm tolerent of it, but I do not accept it as my own belief. Can you do the same? Do you have an ounce of respect in you, so you can evaluate something without spitting insults?

[frankiej]

yeeeaaaahhh, but, most religions are crazy... It is difficult to look at something that condones awful things with respect.

[Ace Otana]

Have any of you given the Bible a fair evaluation, reviewing the evidence with respectful evaluation?

The bible can't be used as evidence of anything. So no, didn't see a shred of that stuff in there. The bible is more of a comedy book than anything else. It's funny to read, what makes it funnier is that people actually believe the shit in there. Didn't read much of it though, I burnt it. Burnt a few actually. They burn nicely.

Can you do the same? Do you have an ounce of respect in you, so you can evaluate something without spitting insults?

I can respect people, but not stupid beliefs.
I've already given consideration to many religions, many beliefs/claims. But at the end of the day, what matters is evidence. I will never have presupposition on anything. It's illogical and unreasonable and very much unacceptable. It's also time consuming and pointless considering that there is so many religions to consider. Over 5,000.
Could you really see me wasting my life going through 5 thousand religions just to satisfy you? Can't presuppose every belief system mate. I won't presuppose one. It's your beliefs, not mine.

[salty]

"Understanding" xtianity is quite easy.



Its just that even with understanding it remains a ridiculous doctrine.

What answer would satisfy you? Would you like a room of Christians to validate your opinion? Do you want me to validate you? I can edify you, but I have an opposing view therefore I won't validate your point. Would you like me to agree with you on some piece of what you said? I agree that when people look at the doctrines of the Christian church, especially the Trinity, it is easy to understand, but difficult to comprehend. For some it will be ridiculous and for others it will be truth.

No one is pressing you to accept what I have stated. You can respectfully disagree and we can actually hold a conversation here or you can agree, and we can say that you and I have one thing in common.

I've been hopping around, reading the comments of people who rush in here to strike back at the passion behind atheism, and I understand why Christians get a bad reputation on this forum, as well as in person. Yet, I who have not come at you like any of them, have been treated the same as them, why is that? If you who do not need any kind of higher power and are aware of morality treat me with such disgust and outright disrespect, do you think I would ever bow your evidence? your links, your authors? it's clear from your behavior alone that my beliefs (in Christ) have led me down a path that values people, why would I ever turn and become like you? Yet, while knowing this, while seeing you plaster videos of acts I wouldn't do or thoughts I don't have, while you insult my intelligence again and again, pulling apart every piece of my responses, I'm still here, hoping to have a conversation with someone, a respectful one, is there anyone that is interested in doing that? Rhythm, should I just leave?

---

Sorry salty you are misunderstanding there...

But then you DO believe in that silly fantasy story don't you??

The only 'higher power' is a universse that couldn't give a shit about you or your infantile fantasies or Rhythm's opinion for that matter (nor mine)

You are reminded that you are on an Atheist Forum. We have already heard everything you could possibly say regarding the abrahamic religions and probably know more than you about them.... You appear to be on an evangelistic mission to convert the 'Ungodly' ....namely atheists.. it ain't gonna work.

I almost missed what you wrote, that smiley face is...awesome. My work will probably be in an Asian country, maybe Japan, maybe China. I'm not a missionary, I'm simply here to answer questions that seekers have, in a respectful, non-committing way. I made peace with the fact that I cannot choose for anyone but myself a long time ago. Also, I know that many of you understand plenty of things about plenty of beliefs, but I don't know any of you, therefore as a new person I have to put myself out there and start understanding who I'm working with, then I'll find the real seekers and I'll find the real thinkers and we'll have an open, respectful debate. I think it's a lie that atheists are immoral, disrespectful, hateful, angry, pitiful and intolerant, but some of you are giving me evidence to think otherwise, and I'm giving all of you a fair chance to prove that you can think for yourselves and you can do it in an honorable way.

[Ace Otana]

Yet, while knowing this, while seeing you plaster videos of acts I wouldn't do or thoughts I don't have, while you insult my intelligence again and again, pulling apart every piece of my responses, I'm still here, hoping to have a conversation with someone, a respectful one, is there anyone that is interested in doing that? Rhythm, should I just leave?

I can only speak for myself, but I've been quite gentle and I've held back many things I could of said. You really think any thing that has been posted in this thread is insulting? You really have seen nothing.

[The Grand Nudger]

I respectfully disagree on many points with a Buddhist I know, I respectfully disagree on many points with an atheist I know (in person) and yet, I never once ask for evidence for their beliefs,

Maybe you should start. Would help to cut through the bullshit in life. Please, I'm begging you, tell me what's so absurd or insulting about evidence?

[salty]

yeeeaaaahhh, but, most religions are crazy... It is difficult to look at something that condones awful things with respect.

yet, I looked at the Nazi statements made on this website with respect because I wanted the full scope of why someone would feel Nazism should be accepted. That person expressed their opinion and I disagreed, but I didn't jump on to tear them down. This is my point: when it comes to a heated debate such as religion or lack of it, you're never going to attract someone with a good opinion if you make it a point to rip every thing down, also, you're never going to be satisfied when you don't know how to accept that your opinion can influence, but does not control another person. I agree, many religious beliefs are crazy, but when someone says to me: You have done wrong in your life, you can be forgiven, you are loved, even though you feel unloveable, you can change and he can help, can I tell you about that person? I listen, then I decide for myself from then on.