Atheist Prayers?

[Kyuuketsuki]

This isn't as daft an idea as it sounds... honest hock:

What do you do when someone you know dies, has an accident, is hospitalised, falls seriously ill or whatever? More to the point what do you say?

There are, of course, a preponderance of theist well wishes from those for the living ("God be with you", "God will help you get better", "It's a miracle you survived", "I'm praying for your recovery" etc .) to those that comfort the relatives of the dead, "He/she's in a better place now", "He/she's with his mother/father/brother/sister now", "One day you'll see him/her again".

The fact is we (atheists) can't compete) with such fantasies, cuddly though they are, so what can we do/say?

My oldest brother died a year an a half ago and it was a lovely funeral, a humanist one and even though I've had the odd argument with my next oldest brother since (he thinks both Dawkins and I are as bad as the fundamentalists) no one said anything that made me want to slap them at the time (truth is I'd probably have just inclined my head slightly in acknowledgement and said, "Thank you" ... me British, reserved 'n all that). My mother's religious and I put my arm round her and said things like, "He died peacefully Mum" (he overdosed on a recreational drug called GHB so that was no lie, with the alcohol he'd had it appeared he simply went to sleep and everything just shut down). I've had a friend come to me with a problem suffered when younger and only manifesting now and I have just acted with compassion, listened to what he has to say, made suggestions when appropriate, acted as drinking partner and helped whenever I can ... it's what friends do but then he's an atheist too.

I'm not sure what I'd do or say if someone I knew was hurt and was religious or if someone died and their family was religious ... I guess I do and say much the same kind of thing.

Like it or not we live in a world where beliefs are tolerated, in many ways, celebrated and (for no reason that makes sense to me) even respected and that makes us the social outcasts, the miscreants etc.

Thoughts?

Kyu

[Eilonnwy]

Replace the word "prayer" with "thoughts" and it incorporates the socially acceptable things to say, keeps you true to your beliefs and does not offend those who do.

I.e. You're in my thoughts, instead of prayers. I'm thinking of you instead of praying. etc...

[Tiberius]

If you think about it (excuse the pre-emptive pun) then praying is the same as thinking, even if you are a theist. When people pray they don't talk to God, they think things over and answers come to them, in exactly the same way atheists think about problems and answers come to them.

[Edward]

I suggest simply lying and say you'll pray for him, and/or bow your head during prayer. It's a funeral for God's sake. If one is going to a funeral, they should either play the part required or stay home and put flowers on the grave later.

Sorry to hear about your brother, though. That's a tough one.

[bozo]

This isn't as daft an idea as it sounds... honest hock:

What do you do when someone you know dies, has an accident, is hospitalised, falls seriously ill or whatever? More to the point what do you say?

There are, of course, a preponderance of theist well wishes from those for the living ("God be with you", "God will help you get better", "It's a miracle you survived", "I'm praying for your recovery" etc .) to those that comfort the relatives of the dead, "He/she's in a better place now", "He/she's with his mother/father/brother/sister now", "One day you'll see him/her again".

The fact is we (atheists) can't compete) with such fantasies, cuddly though they are, so what can we do/say?

My oldest brother died a year an a half ago and it was a lovely funeral, a humanist one and even though I've had the odd argument with my next oldest brother since (he thinks both Dawkins and I are as bad as the fundamentalists) no one said anything that made me want to slap them at the time (truth is I'd probably have just inclined my head slightly in acknowledgement and said, "Thank you" ... me British, reserved 'n all that). My mother's religious and I put my arm round her and said things like, "He died peacefully Mum" (he overdosed on a recreational drug called GHB so that was no lie, with the alcohol he'd had it appeared he simply went to sleep and everything just shut down). I've had a friend come to me with a problem suffered when younger and only manifesting now and I have just acted with compassion, listened to what he has to say, made suggestions when appropriate, acted as drinking partner and helped whenever I can ... it's what friends do but then he's an atheist too.

I'm not sure what I'd do or say if someone I knew was hurt and was religious or if someone died and their family was religious ... I guess I do and say much the same kind of thing.

Like it or not we live in a world where beliefs are tolerated, in many ways, celebrated and (for no reason that makes sense to me) even respected and that makes us the social outcasts, the miscreants etc.

Thoughts?

Kyu

If I were put in that situation it would depend on whether the people concerned knew about my atheist position. Those who knew probably have no problem ( or I wouldn't be there?? ) and so would respect my concern for what it was.
If the people didn't know I would feel duty bound to express my lack of faith and expect it to be respected.

[fr0d0]

If you think about it (excuse the pre-emptive pun) then praying is the same as thinking, even if you are a theist. When people pray they don't talk to God, they think things over and answers come to them, in exactly the same way atheists think about problems and answers come to them.

I suppose a difference could be to think with God in the frame forces you to consider the bigger picture over your personal take which may otherwise take precedence.

I have a problem with religious platitudes too. It makes me cringe. I don't understand how people could be so hypocritical and do stuff in churches when it's meaningless to them. I don't understand the churches exploiting it either.

I guess I appreciate honesty. If you told me how you honestly felt that would mean loads more to me than religious lip service any day.

[bozo]

If you think about it (excuse the pre-emptive pun) then praying is the same as thinking, even if you are a theist. When people pray they don't talk to God, they think things over and answers come to them, in exactly the same way atheists think about problems and answers come to them.

I suppose a difference could be to think with God in the frame forces you to consider the bigger picture over your personal take which may otherwise take precedence.

I have a problem with religious platitudes too. It makes me cringe. I don't understand how people could be so hypocritical and do stuff in churches when it's meaningless to them. I don't understand the churches exploiting it either.

I guess I appreciate honesty. If you told me how you honestly felt that would mean loads more to me than religious lip service any day.

Good for you! I hate lip service wherever and whenever.

[Eilonnwy]

If you think about it (excuse the pre-emptive pun) then praying is the same as thinking, even if you are a theist. When people pray they don't talk to God, they think things over and answers come to them, in exactly the same way atheists think about problems and answers come to them.

I would disagree. First, I'll add the caveat that I agree there are some meditative prayers and in that case I'd grant the premise, but if you're talking about all prayer I think that analogy fails. Even if we believe people are not talking to God, the person praying still believes. They are still talking to something even if it's just the air and I would argue that people who pray on their own behalf or another person don't work out the answers but expect them to just come and as a result things do not get better because they are not trying to fix their own problems. (Because as we know intercessory prayers have been proven to not work.) Or what about Christian Scientists, do their praying heal their children? Thinking about it has never solved illnesses.

When I tell someone I'm thinking about them, I mean it in the sense that I care. I know I can't do anything to make things better but I have genuine human concern. I think that people who say they are praying for someone are trying to show the same thing but they are very arrogant because they don't stop to consider someone's religion, and there is the added fact that they think they are doing good by praying.

[WWLD]

A really good friend of mine just lost his dad the other day. He died of a stroke while he was driving, so I couldn't really say he went peacefully or anything. All I could say was that I was sorry for his loss, he was a great man (seriously, a GREAT guy) and that we would all miss him and it would get easier as time goes on.

When we were talking about it though he did say "well he's in a better place now"

I didn't say anything to that one. All i could do was give him a hug.

[Meatball]

I suggest simply lying and say you'll pray for him, and/or bow your head during prayer. It's a funeral for God's sake. If one is going to a funeral, they should either play the part required or stay home and put flowers on the grave later.

I disagree with this. Funerals are a sensitive time, but why should someone have to hide their philosophies because of it? Anyone who would call you on not bowing your head or specifically offering prayers at a funeral is a massive douchebag.

To be honest, I usually do bow my head for somber events like funerals. For saying grace, weddings or just those random prayers some people tend to do, I definitely won't. If someone asks me to pray for something, or tells me they'll pray for me, I usually smile and and say thank you, to avoid the previously mentioned douchebaggery.