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"Brain-washing"
#1
"Brain-washing"
From the same conversation that sparked the "Democracy vs Republic" debate...

Andrew Wrote:I'm having a bit of a conversation with my brother-in-law who is irate that
some teacher had students in a Spanish class reciting the Mexican pledge of
allegiance.

His feeling is that the words have meaning and somehow affect the kids. My
stance is that rote memorization and repetition doesn't change anybody.

It seems to me that this sort of fear/objection is loosely based on (and
sometime explicitly cited as fear of) brainwashing. But could there be
more to it than that? If you raise kids reciting their allegiance to the
US does it have any affect other than wasting a minute or two in the
morning?

I say repetition doesn't necessarily lead to belief. What do you guys think? Do commercials change the way people act and think after hearing them so many times? If you repeat a lie enough, does it become true? ("When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.")

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#2
RE: "Brain-washing"
Commercials have changed my perception of things. I'm weird in the way where I'm easily "brainwashed" but then reason kicks in at a later time. For weak minded people brainwashing is easier. That's why religious people tend to be not as intelligent compared to non-religious people.
Quote:"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
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#3
RE: "Brain-washing"
On repetition of adverts: My intro social psych book says yes, but... To a degree, if it's already familiar, if they already agree with the statement (and how much they agree, your efforts to persuade can actually backfire and have the opposite effect), the person's self esteem... blah blah blah

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#4
RE: "Brain-washing"
Repetition doesn't necessarily lead to belief but it can. I had to say the pledge of allegiance every day in class and I'm still disgusted with this country's policies, foreign and domestic.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#5
RE: "Brain-washing"
I think it is more of making things seem "normal" and socially acceptable is more of the type of brainwashing.

Everyone believes in God so it must be true... I mean look it's on our money and in our pledge.

Oh look 1 million beer commercials, must be ok to just drink and drink it, it can't be bad look at all the commercials and people doing it, they are having so much fun, and hot models drink Coors light... fuck I need to go buy a 24 pack stat!

War is ok, it's everywhere, video games, its just how we are, I'm desensitized to people blowing up yay.

Cigarettes fix sore throats. (Commercial) Doesn't mean the lie will ever be true... but it got people to buy cigarettes and that was the goal.

But like others said... it only works on the weak minded who take everything at face value. Also it matters on when the brainwashing takes place, during the brains developmental phases I would say the person would be more susceptible to propaganda.
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#6
RE: "Brain-washing"
I fancy a coors now!



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#7
RE: "Brain-washing"
Yeah, it would go down well right now.
Cunt
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#8
RE: "Brain-washing"

I'm generally skeptical of grand claims being made for brainwashing as what little reading I've done in the area (Wikipedia rox!) seems to indicate that documentation of the phenomena is lacking.

Do I believe Vietnamese prisoners were subjected to harsh psychological pressures that caused extreme reactions, sure. Were these reactions controlled and predictably reliable? I doubt it.

And the question gets even murkier when you come to people who are fanatics about "dangerous cults" and the brainwashing of members by "charismatic leaders". In a recent discussion about Scientology, it became clear to me that the main criteria people were using to sieve alternative religions into the "cult" category were: a) how new the religion was, b) how unpopular it was with mainstream religions and the general public, and c) how large it was (number of members). The only additional criteria that surfaced drew attention to published statements of L Ron Hubbard regarding his mission (tax free status).

Of course, once an alternative religion is thus identified, it is immediately assumed to be the most destructive kind, to engage in brainwashing, and be impossible for members to voluntarily leave. This of course justifies the do-gooder to engage in kidnapping, coercion, and their own brand of reverse brainwashing (aka "de-programming"). Perhaps some of these alternative religions are guilty on all counts. But that's usually a justification after the fact. There is also the question of "exit counseling" which is often slotted alongside de-programming efforts, though hopefully with more humanitarian aims. The Swedish Government's Commission on New Religious Movements found that only 0.2% of ex-cult members required some form of post-affiliation counseling, yet cult awareness fanatics say otherwise. Loud and long. And one can only guess at what forms of coercion go on amongst friends and family of the pre- and post-affiliation individual. All in the name of love, and, being a good friend.

No, I'm rather skeptical. First, the little data I've examined. Second, my own researches into the way the mind works and the way beliefs are formed suggests that: a) it's likely hard to predict cause and effect even in intentional coercion, b) individual psychological make up is likely a greater predictor than any coercions, and c) I rather doubt that even the more extreme situations differ greatly in either degree or kind from that we consider "normal" and "non-pathological" in ordinary social processes and discourses.

That being said, I spent some time attending services at a Unitarian Universalist church (which is described as the most atheistc of UU churches here, a good sized metropolis). We didn't pray or anything, but they did have a book of hymns. Every time I sang hymns with them, I was distinctly weirded out, as I knew I wasn't processing the information (the lyrics, the social experience, the perceptions) in an ordinary way. In some sense I felt like my mind was being short circuited and messages bypassing me to become, what, I don't know. (Of course, then I wonder what listening to songs or reading poems does -- not as intense or subconscious as the hymns, but what do I know?)

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#9
RE: "Brain-washing"

I found this in a book I'm reading, and found it both funny and apropos.

The book is, "Mistakes Were Made (but not by me)" by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.



The reason Big Pharma spends so much on small gifts is well known to marketers, lobbyists, and social psychologists: Being given a gift evokes an implicit desire to reciprocate …. Robert Cialdini, who has spent many years studying influence and persuasion techniques, systematically observed Hare Krishna advocates raise money at airports. Asking weary travelers for a donation wasn’t working; the Krishnas just made the travelers mad at them. And so the Krishnas came up with a better idea: They would approach target travelers and press a flower into their hands or pin the flower to their jackets. If the target refused the flower and tried to give it back, the Krishna would demur and say, “It is our gift to you.” Only then did the Krishna ask for a donation. This time the request was likely to be accepted, because the gift of the flower had established a feeling of indebtedness and obligation in the traveler. How to repay the gift? With a small donation .... and perhaps the purchase of a charming, overpriced edition of the Bhagavad Gita.

Were the travelers aware of the power of reciprocity to affect their behavior? Not at all. But once reciprocity kicks in, self-justification will follow: “I’ve always wanted a copy of the Bhagavad Gita; what is it, exactly?” The power of the flower is unconscious …. Once you take the gift, no matter how small, the process starts. You will feel the urge to give something back, even if it’s only, at first, your attention, your willingness to listen, your sympathy for the giver. Eventually, you will become more willing to give your prescription, your ruling, your vote. Your behavior changes, but, thanks to blind spots and self-justification, your view of your intellectual and professional integrity remains the same.

Carl Elliott, a bioethicist and philosopher who also has an MD, has written extensively about the ways that small gifts entrap their recipients. His brother Hal, a psychiatrist, told him how he ended up on the speakers bureau of a large pharmaceutical company: First they asked him to give a talk about depression to a community group. Why not, he thought; it would be a public service. Next they asked him to speak on the same subject at a hospital. Next they began making suggestions about the content of his talk, urging him to speak not about depression, but about antidepressants. Then they told him they could get him on a national speaking circuit, “where the real money is.” Then they asked him to lecture about their own new antidepressant. Looking back, Hal told his brother:

“It’s kind of like you’re a woman at a party, and your boss says to you, “Look, do me a favor: be nice to this guy over there.” And you see the guy is not bad-looking, and you’re unattached, so you say, “Why not? I can be nice.” Soon you find yourself on the way to a Bangkok brothel in the cargo hold of an unmarked plane. And you say, “Whoa, this is not what I agreed to.” But then you have to ask yourself: “When did the prostitution actually start? Wasn’t it at that party?”





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#10
RE: "Brain-washing"
it's an interesting topic. i think people generally believe what sounds nice, just because they want to believe it. I was going to watch a nat geo special online the other day and read a comment about it that claimed that nat geo had been compromised, and not to rely on their information. this person said that Rupert Murdoch and FOX owned nat geo and it can't be trusted. the unsure skeptic in me couldn't resist! i looked it up, and sure enough, FOX owns 75% of the nat geo channel.

this didn't stop me from watching it. i made notes as i watched it, and although i haven't had time yet, i intend on researching, fact checking, and contemplating the data i collected from the film. not everyone would. perhaps therein the problem lies?

@apophenia- i love your signature! aleister crowley is one of my favorite poets. he inspired my daughter's name. (aleia)

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