Questions for theists.

[The Grand Nudger]

Last I checked Catholics are the largest subgroup of christians. So if you're going to appeal to some sort of majority, the majority says you're dead wrong. Of course what the majority of people believe has absolutely no effect on reality, so at least your answer is safe on that count, eh? If someone offers up a catholic response as a "majority viewpoint" they're absolutely correct in doing so. Whether or not you agree has no effect on the veracity of the statement. Similarly, whether or not the people you personally know agree has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

[ElDinero]

I didn't say "I don't think people will go to hell", I said "I don't think anyone will burn forever in Hell." I think a lot of people will end up in hell, just not that they'll be tortured for all eternity..

Thanks for the clarification. Will Fr0d0 have the bollocks to admit he was being a little cunt and twisting things in a sad attempt to discredit me? Time will tell.

That said, sounds like more 'interpretation' to suit what YOU, as a fairly secular, moral and liberal person want to believe. Let me ask you this: If you're wrong, and the punishment is eternal, is that moral, or would God be wrong to condemn people to that?

[tackattack]

Last I checked Catholics are the largest subgroup of christians. So if you're going to appeal to some sort of majority, the majority says you're dead wrong. Of course what the majority of people believe has absolutely no effect on reality, so at least your answer is safe on that count, eh? If someone offers up a catholic response as a "majority viewpoint" they're absolutely correct in doing so. Whether or not you agree has no effect on the veracity of the statement. Similarly, whether or not the people you personally know agree has no effect on the veracity of the statement.

Most practicing Catholics I've met consider the average Christian apostate, and most denominational Christians I've met don't even consider Catholics a denomination of Christianity, predominantly for their worship of the saints and Mary as opposed to strictly Jesus. I personally consider Catholics on the fringes of Biblical Christianity, along the lines of the Jehovas witness and Mormons, as do many of my contemporaries. I'm not attempting a no true scotsman, just that while catholics are obviously Abrahamic theists, doctrinaly they add the apocrypha. While I'm sure you'd love to debate that, my point was what I refer to as Christians are any branch of Christianity that uses the 66 books of the standard protestant Bible, with no extra Biblical additions.
While Roman Catholicism does have numerically more adherents statistically than the sum of the denominations (I havne' seen teh statistics, but I'm fairly certain) I've yet to meet a Catholic who attends Mass regularly or considers themselves practicing (including my God sister and mother), so I wouldn't consider the majority of catholics active, making their larger numbers far less adherents, and far more general theist population. You can see it how you like though, but I've asked tons of people what they believe and almost every single Catholic answers with "I'm Catholic" and almost every single one of the denomination or non denom. people I've met have said "I'm Christian".

I didn't say "I don't think people will go to hell", I said "I don't think anyone will burn forever in Hell." I think a lot of people will end up in hell, just not that they'll be tortured for all eternity..

Thanks for the clarification. Will Fr0d0 have the bollocks to admit he was being a little cunt and twisting things in a sad attempt to discredit me? Time will tell.

That said, sounds like more 'interpretation' to suit what YOU, as a fairly secular, moral and liberal person want to believe. Let me ask you this: If you're wrong, and the punishment is eternal, is that moral, or would God be wrong to condemn people to that?

I can't speak for Fr0ds. The consequence is eternal (everlasting or final) in that there is no coming back from being destroyed forever. The few people on the Christian forum that believe in the doctrine of eternal torment I go to, have yet to support their view Scriptually in the original language of whatever version they read. The backlash from them expressing that view takes up quite a few pages. I am a strong proponent against "hell fire and damnnation" preaching to answer your question as it is, even by human standards, morally deplorable and I also find it unsupported by scripture. The afterlife generally though is not a primary focus for me, as I believe Jesus' teachings were predominantly for living within this one lifetime. You can call it "my interpretation" but if you some of the atheists on here, including yourself, could join a Christian forum without getting kicked off shortly after, you'd find it's a majority view. I can appreciate that many of the atheists here have been done with religion for a while or were never into religion at all, so your sampling pool may have been limited to your regional flavors. I've been in everything from a Catholic Mass, to a evangelistic revival and tons of shades in between. From my view eternal torment is a minority view and Catholics are considered more of idoalters and only slightly closer to Christianity than Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses.

[chadster1976]

The "Protestant" Bible? Protestant must mean after Martin Luther which would make it very much a revisionist piece.... or the term could be worthless! Ask just about any Christian in Belfast what they are and your response will certainly be "protestant" or "catholic".
You certainly have misunderstood catholicism if you think it is about worshipping saints and Mary instead of Christ. You should be using their lives as examples and use their experiences to get closer to Christ, not to replace him.
Jesus spoke of forgiveness, atonement, enlightenment. I think his dad may have held similar opinions.

[The Grand Nudger]

Statistics don't seem to agree with your view on what the majority of christians believe about hell, or who is or is not a christian. Just repeating myself here since you felt the need to repeat yourself. Whether or not catholics all believe in their dogma word for word could be argued, but as it stands I'll go ahead and take them at their word, that they believe in the teachings of cathol(lulz) as they claim. Why, btw, does it seem to be so important for non-catholic christians to criticize the christianity or beliefs of catholics when their own faith derives every bit of it's authenticity from the myths that the catholics kept, refined, and handed down through time? Each of you is massively in their debt.

[chadster1976]

Whatever happened to the populist front Reg?
He's over there...
SPLITTER!

[tackattack]

The "Protestant" Bible? Protestant must mean after Martin Luther which would make it very much a revisionist piece.... or the term could be worthless! Ask just about any Christian in Belfast what they are and your response will certainly be "protestant" or "catholic".
You certainly have misunderstood catholicism if you think it is about worshipping saints and Mary instead of Christ. You should be using their lives as examples and use their experiences to get closer to Christ, not to replace him.
Jesus spoke of forgiveness, atonement, enlightenment. I think his dad may have held similar opinions.

I did not intend to criticize, just showing the popular opinion of the Christians in my neighborhood, sorry if it offended. I didn't say Catholics treated the saints and Mary over Jesus, but I don't pray to my dead Grandmothers or Moses or Abraham, I pray to God or Jesus. If you reread what I wrote I said "as opposed to strictly Jesus." which is the Catholic view as I understand it. I know they believe we can still petition the dead on our behalf, and are into confession. Those I feel are opposed to Jesus work in clearing the veil between the individual and God. Not to criticize as Catholicism has contributed to a lot of things.As a non-denominational I prefer to look at what draws us together and our similarities rather than pointing out our differences, but in this case I felt it necessary to clarify doctrinal differences. Thanks for accentuating my point, in that there are Catholics, then there are Protestants, hence the different Bible, dogma and perspective.

Statistics don't seem to agree with your view on what the majority of christians believe about hell, or who is or is not a christian. Just repeating myself here since you felt the need to repeat yourself. Whether or not catholics all believe in their dogma word for word could be argued, but as it stands I'll go ahead and take them at their word, that they believe in the teachings of cathol(lulz) as they claim. Why, btw, does it seem to be so important for non-catholic christians to criticize the christianity or beliefs of catholics when their own faith derives every bit of it's authenticity from the myths that the catholics kept, refined, and handed down through time? Each of you is massively in their debt.

Since you're just restating opinion without any statistics, I figure one of us should at least do the legwork. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_poll3.htm#salv clearly shows that some of my beliefs are in the minority like I don't believe Good works can earn a place in Heaven (probably do to the inordinate amount of Catholics polled). I believe person's religious belief will matter. I don't believe one must believe in God in order to be moral. All of those but me in the minority view. However, Hell is a place where people are tormented 31% by Americans, means you can't substantiate your claim that the majority believe Hell is a place of torment. I don't think modern Christianity derives much, if any, of it's authenticity from catholic mythos. I'll stick with Judaism as a better foundation, but we're diverging again from the point.

[5thHorseman]

I remember loling at a poll in Rome where Jesus can about 10th on who Catholics pray to when they need help.

[The Grand Nudger]

Clever of you to pick the US, a country literally colonized and founded by people who were fed up with catholic (amongst others) shit. Still stands. The RCC is the largest christian denomination, going beyond it's walls we find other denominations which also believe in the eternal nature of hell. It's a majority viewpoint. If modern christianity truly derived it's mythos from judaism there would probably be less "christ" involved Tack.

("but, but, but here in the US" is simply restating "the people I know", or "the people who share my religious heritage". Surprise surprise, amongst the group of people who agree with you your's is a majority viewpoint. )

[tackattack]

Fair enough, and I wasn't trying to be clever. I sometimes forget the diversity of this community. I will concede that worldwide, eternal torment in hell is a majority view just because it's catholic dogma and catholics are the wordlwide majority. Despite whether those Catholics actually believe it or not. You're still not getting the overall point though as you say "which also believe in the eternal nature of hell". I believe in the eternal nature of Hell as well, just not that whatever goes there writhes in torment forever, it's still not scriptually sound. Of the 4 words translated as Hell, Ghenna would be the closest to Hell and no verse of the 12 I'm farmiliar with says anyhting about being tormented eternally. If our resident RCC would like to have a debate about it, perhaps I could be enlightened into a new viewpoint.

"The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

even the CCC states that the fire is eternal and further references

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

bolding by me. What is eternal death? Destruction perhaps? Are you so sure eternal torment is doctrine of the RCC?




As far as deriving from judaism, I'm fairly certain that Jesus was a Jew. I also currently worship in a messianic temple and a Rabbi taught some of our Bible studies.