Occupy wallstreet demands

[Shell B]

Meaning, they have a demand for labor, but they're just not hiring?
This does not really make sense. You need employees to keep a business(that is in need of employees) running.
They will hire enough to get things to work. No less, no more.
If there are more people that they need, they'll hire the ones that they deem to be fit for the job.

Kilic, you do not get it. The economy is in the toilet. There are NO jobs. It doesn't matter how fit you are for the job if there is NO job. Oddly enough, I am qualified to do several different things. The people I have worked with in all but the business I am in right now are having hard times finding jobs. When cooks and welders are having a hard time finding work, you know something is wrong.

Well, that might also be the case, in which case you need to seek a counsel at school before applying to a university.

You are not understanding this. at. all. Counsel cannot tell if a business is going to collapse in four years. There are many circumstances that dictate whether a booming industry will keep booming. A school counselor isn't going to always be able to predict the job market.

Indeed, there are many useless college degrees now, but I personally wouldn't try for a college education if I knew that such a degree wouldn't bring me a good job(like african-american studies and etc.).

What if you didn't know, silly? That is the point. Besides, degrees like, "African-American studies" are typically supportive of a narrow career goal, not career goals in and of themselves.

This of course is the fault of the parents, wheras the parents in Turkey are heavily involved in the education of their children, and generally seek counsel from the school and other people who know things before sending their children to university.

It doesn't matter how involved your parents are. You could train to be a gynecologist and then have all of the women on the planet disappear tomorrow. I realize that is far-fetched, but I am having trouble getting this point through to you. The job market issue in the United States has fuckall to do with what kids are choosing to study.

And I also said that not all education can bring you a good job, that's why I did not opt to go for a degree in history although that was a primary interest of mine and chose to go with my father's wishes of becoming a chemical engineer.

And the demand for that kind of work could strangle unexpectedly, leaving you with your dick in your hand, just like any other business.

Meaning that people just refuse to invest their money into something they can profit from?

Honestly, there must be some communication breakdown going on here. That is not the problem. It is difficult to profit in this economy.

Most people who want to expand need to use loans for that. Starters, even more so. And I think that simply because you think that every business will take a hold, won't make it that way.

Oh, for pity's sake. If people are not buying, no one can sell. NO. ONE.

Well, do you not have master cards which directly access your reserves in the bank account?

Yes, and they are also credit cards in their own right.

Why use a credit card for that?

Because I have to.

Either you have the money to pay for that service, or you don't. IF you don't, then simply do not use a credit card.

Holy fucking simple, batman. It's not that I do not have the money and must use a credit card. It is that I cannot pay for the service without a credit card. They will not let you. Even if I used a bank card, I would have to use a bank, which was your initial point. You said something like, "People choose to use the banks." I NEED a bank account to do my job, pay for things, etc.

I personally use no credit card in anything, and prefer to handle everything in hard currency.

That's nice for you. You do not have to have a credit card, apparently.

Well, if they had a job, they wouldn't be there in the first place. Indeed, they may, or may not have a degree or a license in something. However, I don't have any knowledge on what kind of education these people have to actually benefit from it. You cannot expect a sociology student to find a job as quickly as a law student(lawyer, prosecutor etc.). Or find it at all, like what are sociology degrees good for anyways, but in research?

There are plenty of people there who have jobs!! Seriously, what are you on about if you have no clue what is going on? I apologize, but it really seems like you have no fucking clue what OWS is about or about the people protesting.

So you mean that the government is doing something illegal. So where is your supreme court?

Haha, that's funny.

Well indeed, but does the (US)government have any laws against gambling?

You missed the point. It is not about gambling. It is about state law vs. federal law. I don't give a shit about gambling or whether it is legal. It was an example, nothing more. Unfortunately, all it did was derail the conversation.

Well, that is too much of a simple solution. I don't think how it's going to work out.

Obviously not.

By small government, do you mean small government interference(en general), or small government as like in regional government with no federal interference?

Regional with limited federal interference.

And small businesses have already passed in America. Here, they work fine, yes, but America is home to many large, international corporations. Do you think of shutting them down somehow?

I'm sorry. This is getting frustrating. Small business has not "passed" in the U.S. You see them all the time. It just getting harder for them to succeed and grow.

Well, I'm not saying that people shouldn't do anything, however is this the fault of a particular(the current) government, or is it a part that is inherently within the system?

What does that have to do with the OP? You are going on about the protesters wanting better cars and needing better education.

There isn't much to investigate, actually, since it was public.

Oh, my fucking Gandalf. The cash prizes *ahem* bailouts were public. What the companies did with the money only came out after people looked into it.

The link to corporate money. I know that they finance elections and etc...
But other than that, their only ties to corporate money could be in the form of taxes, at least on legal terms.
Or are they affiliated in one way or the other with your politicians?
Either in legal terms, or in terms of corrupt behaviour, like bribes and etc?

Our politicians are big business owners, in many cases. What do you think?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Kilic, you do not get it. The economy is in the toilet. There are NO jobs. It doesn't matter how fit you are for the job if there is NO job. Oddly enough, I am qualified to do several different things. The people I have worked with in all but the business I am in right now are having hard times finding jobs. When cooks and welders are having a hard time finding work, you know something is wrong.

If that's the case, there isn't something that you, or anyone else can do about it.
Unless you inject more and more money into the economy that will pay for the people who work to earn that money, and if those workers actually allow the employer to actually earn some profits, only then, you'll have some sort of a permanent job.
And that's one big if.
There is nothing, nothing that the government, or banks can do to help you find a job, unless the government opens government owned enterprises, which gives jobs to qualified people that want work.
Of course, you might not earn as much as in the private sector maybe, but at least you have a permanent job(unless the government decides on privatizing it).

You are not understanding this. at. all. Counsel cannot tell if a business is going to collapse in four years. There are many circumstances that dictate whether a booming industry will keep booming. A school counselor isn't going to always be able to predict the job market.

Well, if you work in such a highly specialized branch, like enough to get you without a job for a long long time since there are no alternatives you can apply to...But the downhill of a single company, or business cannot actually render you without the possibility of finding a job ever.

What if you didn't know, silly? That is the point. Besides, degrees like, "African-American studies" are typically supportive of a narrow career goal, not career goals in and of themselves.

And that's the point. The narrow career goal actually leads to nowhere.

It doesn't matter how involved your parents are. You could train to be a gynecologist and then have all of the women on the planet disappear tomorrow. I realize that is far-fetched, but I am having trouble getting this point through to you. The job market issue in the United States has fuckall to do with what kids are choosing to study.

Well, that's generally not the case most of the time.

And the demand for that kind of work could strangle unexpectedly, leaving you with your dick in your hand, just like any other business.

You're not talking based on any data or facts. It's highly unlikely that the demand for historians is going to rise up any time soon, or the demand for engineers is going downhill.
Engineers are used in a variety of fields, most of which are too important for our society to actually allow for you to stand there, doing nothing.
At least that's the case for developed countries.

Honestly, there must be some communication breakdown going on here. That is not the problem. It is difficult to profit in this economy.

Well, that probably is the case why people are holding on to their money.
Besides, how exactly are you going to make things more profitable?
As I said, things are hard for most small businesses in North America, since worldwide corporations generally hail from there..The USA is heaven for Monopolies, and the places which haven't been monopolized yet are still contested on by larger corporations who generally try to outdo eachother.

Oh, for pity's sake. If people are not buying, no one can sell. NO. ONE.

Okay..But you see, that's a dead end. There isn't really something that can be done. IF you mean by "people are not buying" like they have no disposable income for that, it's a different issue, but if you mean that people are already buying whatever service that business is providing from somewhere else, than yeah.
As I said, opening a business holds great risks, unless you provide general services as well as to compete with others in the area.

Yes, and they are also credit cards in their own right.

I thought that credit cards are only cards that use the money of the bank which you pay off later with interest. I mean, we use the word for credit cards to denote such ones. Not the ones that access your own deposits in the bank.

Because I have to.

You mean you do not have the money available?

Holy fucking simple, batman. It's not that I do not have the money and must use a credit card. It is that I cannot pay for the service without a credit card. They will not let you. Even if I used a bank card, I would have to use a bank, which was your initial point. You said something like, "People choose to use the banks." I NEED a bank account to do my job, pay for things, etc.

I think we have a problem in terms of communication. I couldn't really understand what you mean by credit cards. Do you mean those that are tied to your deposits, or like the ones that have limits and chips and all that..

That's nice for you. You do not have to have a credit card, apparently.

Well, I only have one card that I use to take money from my bank account. Not to actually use a credit card as something that allows me to use "credits" which I have to repay later.

There are plenty of people there who have jobs!! Seriously, what are you on about if you have no clue what is going on? I apologize, but it really seems like you have no fucking clue what OWS is about or about the people protesting.

I seriously doubt that the people at OWS know it themselves.
If it were just because the banks were bailed out from the crisis, they should have done it back then.

Haha, that's funny.

The USA is not some sort of a banana state. I thought that the law has word there.

You missed the point. It is not about gambling. It is about state law vs. federal law. I don't give a shit about gambling or whether it is legal. It was an example, nothing more. Unfortunately, all it did was derail the conversation.

But since the state laws cannot actually subdue federal laws, how do you actually expect different results?

Obviously not.

Yeah.

Regional with limited federal interference.

Well, what exactly are the limits you have in mind?

I'm sorry. This is getting frustrating. Small business has not "passed" in the U.S. You see them all the time. It just getting harder for them to succeed and grow.

Well, whatever works fine, are probably things that do not offer basic services. Like restaurants, pubs, discos, hairdressers and etc.
I don't think a grocery store can actully make any money with a walmart in front of it.

Oh, my fucking Gandalf. The cash prizes *ahem* bailouts were public. What the companies did with the money only came out after people looked into it.

Well, what exactly did they do with it?

Our politicians are big business owners, in many cases. What do you think?

Well, not much. It's you, who vote for them. On paper, everyone can become a candidate. However, these have the time and money to publicize themselves. Why doesn't anyone else ask themselves the question, why are our politicians made up from business owners?
Well,you are all pondering on issues like abortion, that's probably why.
And about the stance of your business owning politicians who probably couldn't give a damn if some teen-mom in a depraved neighborhood gets her baby sucked out of her.

[Shell B]

If that's the case, there isn't something that you, or anyone else can do about it.
Unless you inject more and more money into the economy that will pay for the people who work to earn that money, and if those workers actually allow the employer to actually earn some profits, only then, you'll have some sort of a permanent job.
And that's one big if.
There is nothing, nothing that the government, or banks can do to help you find a job, unless the government opens government owned enterprises, which gives jobs to qualified people that want work.
Of course, you might not earn as much as in the private sector maybe, but at least you have a permanent job(unless the government decides on privatizing it).

That's not true. Now you are being overly simplistic. You do not necessarily need money to create jobs. You need demand.

Well, if you work in such a highly specialized branch, like enough to get you without a job for a long long time since there are no alternatives you can apply to...But the downhill of a single company, or business cannot actually render you without the possibility of finding a job ever.

You typically do not have specialized education that is not coupled with a broader education. It is very good to have specialized knowledge. In my field, it is the best way to make money. When I said "business" in that context, I meant in the larger scale of the word. An industry.

You're not talking based on any data or facts.

Yes, I am. If you look at the most impoverished cities in the United States, there was typically a booming industry that all of a sudden collapsed, leaving all of the people who lived there jobless. The effects last decades or more.

It's highly unlikely that the demand for historians is going to rise up any time soon, or the demand for engineers is going downhill.

I never said it was, but having a history degree is not a bad thing right now. You can be a consultant for film and television. You can make documentaries. You can have a blog. You can have a book or two, etc. Being a historian is actually not as dead end as you might think.

Engineers are used in a variety of fields, most of which are too important for our society to actually allow for you to stand there, doing nothing.
At least that's the case for developed countries.

Yeah, and if your country goes broke, you're fucked.

Okay..But you see, that's a dead end. There isn't really something that can be done.

Of course there is. Societies are ever changing things, kilic. There are no dead ends.

Yes, and they are also credit cards in their own right.

I thought that credit cards are only cards that use the money of the bank which you pay off later with interest. I mean, we use the word for credit cards to denote such ones. Not the ones that access your own deposits in the bank.
[/quote]

Both are credit cards, in a way. I can use my bank card as a credit card. I have a line of credit with my bank. I pay off my credit cards and my bank cards without a problem. My point is that I HAVE TO use the bank.

You mean you do not have the money available?

No, kilic. I have said it like four times. You can only purchase certain things using a credit card or a bank card with a credit option. I cannot use cash to rent a car, a house, a room, etc. My clients cannot pay me without a bank account. I cannot pay some of my bills without a bank account. Quit dwelling on the credit part and remember why we are discussing this and that is because you said that people choose to use banks. I have no other option, therefore, it is not a choice.

I seriously doubt that the people at OWS know it themselves.
If it were just because the banks were bailed out from the crisis, they should have done it back then.

You keep ignoring half of my points. You said they do not have jobs. Plenty of them do. It is not just about banks being bailed out and yes, they know why they are there. How can you think you know more about what they are doing than they do themselves? It's arrogant.

The USA is not some sort of a banana state. I thought that the law has word there.

It does, but you seem to think a lot of things about the U.S. that just are not correct. FOX News, right?

But since the state laws cannot actually subdue federal laws, how do you actually expect different results?

It can defy it and does often. At any rate, the different result would come from stemming the federal government. Are you paying attention?

Well, what exactly are the limits you have in mind?

The ones I already mentioned.

Well, what exactly did they do with it?

Google it. There were too many companies and too much bullshit for me to outline it all here. An example would be giving bonuses to already wealthy employees or spending money on play time.

Well, not much. It's you, who vote for them. On paper, everyone can become a candidate. However, these have the time and money to publicize themselves. Why doesn't anyone else ask themselves the question, why are our politicians made up from business owners?
Well,you are all pondering on issues like abortion, that's probably why.
And about the stance of your business owning politicians who probably couldn't give a damn if some teen-mom in a depraved neighborhood gets her baby sucked out of her.

Kilic, there seems to be a major bridge here that I do not have time to cross. You do not understand that I do not vote for them and that, most of the time, they are lying through their teeth when they are trying to get votes. We're obviously not pondering issues like abortion if you and I are sitting here talking about a U.S. movement regarding the issues we speak of that went global. Duh.

[Skeptical_Nurse]

The demands are ridiculous. Imo

[Shell B]

The demands are ridiculous. Imo

Uh-huh.

[Phaedra]

The demands are ridiculous. Imo

Care to elaborate?

[Shell B]

Why? They are just dirty, jobless hippies. Who cares why they are ridiculous?

[kılıç_mehmet]

That's not true. Now you are being overly simplistic. You do not necessarily need money to create jobs. You need demand.

Well, you need money.
That is actually it.
You need money. You have to create the working conditions for the employees, you need to pay their wages, and etc. Without actually spending money, you cannot create money, nor jobs.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but that's it. And whatever demand that plays a role here, is not the demand for jobs, it's the demand for goods and services, and employment to provide these, in order to earn money.

Yes, I am. If you look at the most impoverished cities in the United States, there was typically a booming industry that all of a sudden collapsed, leaving all of the people who lived there jobless. The effects last decades or more.

For exmaple?

I never said it was, but having a history degree is not a bad thing right now. You can be a consultant for film and television. You can make documentaries. You can have a blog. You can have a book or two, etc. Being a historian is actually not as dead end as you might think.

Well, I didn't say it was bad. I just said it's hard to have a permanent job, or at least a job in which you can rise to be the head of a plant or the like.
Have people working under you.

Yeah, and if your country goes broke, you're fucked.

But not just you.

Of course there is. Societies are ever changing things, kilic. There are no dead ends.

Well, depends on the level of change.

Both are credit cards, in a way. I can use my bank card as a credit card. I have a line of credit with my bank. I pay off my credit cards and my bank cards without a problem. My point is that I HAVE TO use the bank.

Well, true. I also have to use the bank in certain transactions.
But I generally choose interest free ways of paying things.

No, kilic. I have said it like four times. You can only purchase certain things using a credit card or a bank card with a credit option. I cannot use cash to rent a car, a house, a room, etc. My clients cannot pay me without a bank account. I cannot pay some of my bills without a bank account. Quit dwelling on the credit part and remember why we are discussing this and that is because you said that people choose to use banks. I have no other option, therefore, it is not a choice.

Well, it's probably the case for the country you live in.
Here, hard currency still goes a long way, yes, civil servants and public employees get their salaries via transfer to bank accounts, but rents are almost always in hard currency, or as deposits to another bank account(like actually taking out the money, and sending it to another bank ccount, while getting a receipt and all).

You keep ignoring half of my points. You said they do not have jobs. Plenty of them do. It is not just about banks being bailed out and yes, they know why they are there. How can you think you know more about what they are doing than they do themselves? It's arrogant.

If they do, what are they doing over there, actually?
Did they take the time out of job to sit around?
It really baffles me.
And again, why on earth are they there?

It does, but you seem to think a lot of things about the U.S. that just are not correct. FOX News, right?

Well, I haven't watched fox news or whatever, but that's the impression that I have about America, since people are always referring to the law, tax monies, first amendments and etc. when it comes to things..

It can defy it and does often. At any rate, the different result would come from stemming the federal government. Are you paying attention?

Then it is committing a crime against the federal government. That requires some attention, I think. Federal governments are bullshit imo anyways.

Kilic, there seems to be a major bridge here that I do not have time to cross. You do not understand that I do not vote for them and that, most of the time, they are lying through their teeth when they are trying to get votes. We're obviously not pondering issues like abortion if you and I are sitting here talking about a U.S. movement regarding the issues we speak of that went global. Duh.

Well, here we are, talking about the real issues that plagues the American public, however, the major political parties do base their political promises on things like abortion, and that's what I meant.
You people just seemed to me like you had so few problems, that you began to discuss things like abortion and the likes out of boredom, and base your political platforms according to these things.
[/code]

[Mister Agenda]

This is not presented as evidence for one view or the other, merely as a possible resource:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45081333/ns/...ing-crazy/

[Shell B]

Well, you need money.
That is actually it.
You need money. You have to create the working conditions for the employees, you need to pay their wages, and etc. Without actually spending money, you cannot create money, nor jobs.

Again, that is not quite true. You do not always have to spend money to make money. You need demand for a service and a clientele willing to pay for it.

Yes, I am. If you look at the most impoverished cities in the United States, there was typically a booming industry that all of a sudden collapsed, leaving all of the people who lived there jobless. The effects last decades or more.

For exmaple?

Detroit.

Well, I didn't say it was bad. I just said it's hard to have a permanent job, or at least a job in which you can rise to be the head of a plant or the like.
Have people working under you.

Being head of a plant is better than making movies, teaching, consulting, etc. how?

Well, depends on the level of change.

Everything can change. If you had a history degree, you would know that.

Well, true. I also have to use the bank in certain transactions.
But I generally choose interest free ways of paying things.

Kilic, that is fucking irrelevant. You were talking about people choosing to use banks. I was telling you it isn't a choice. It has nothing to do with credit, you just took my analogy and rolled with it.

The people there do take their time off to go protest. Some of them are jobless. Some of them can work online from the tent cities. Some of them do not stay over.