Believe:

[Edwardo Piet]

Hey,
To EvF I can only explain that I just assume there must be god, because it is the only thing that personally makes sense.

And why is, what personally makes sense to you, a good reason? I mean: have you got any more substance to your reasoning simply than 'personally makes sense'? Lots of people's beliefs simply make 'personal sense' to them. That doesn't make them true - it doesn't add any remote evidence in and of itself. It needs to make sense BECAUSE of a good reason - just 'making sense' itself - isn't a good reason or evidence at all.

Why does it make sense to you? And if we are talking a bout the actual existence of something here (a God) - then it isn't just a personal thing. I mean you believe that the God you believe in (whatever it is) exists outside your own mind don't you? So it's not just a personal belief - you believe it exists OUTSIDE your head - in 'reality', right?

I suppose there could not be, but to me that makes no sense. I need there to be a why. Not 'why did fido have to die?' kind of why, but 'why does fido die?' way.

Why do you assume there needs to be a reason? Just because you want there to be?

Why is the system the way it is and not another? It just does not add up

Well, it had to be SOME way. And if it WAS a different way - in an alternative reality - you could still be asking exactly the same question. However the universe is, 'you' (whatever you'd be in that universe), could theoretically - be asking the same question: "Why THIS universe? Why THIS way?" - well, it's gotta be SOME way hasn't it? Because we're here asking that question - and if it WAS another way -we could still be asking it.

Why do you assume it has to be THIS way for a reason? It's not like it's been perfectly created. There are a lot of fucked up things in the world - and as far as we know, so far, out of all the known planets in the universe - ours is the only one with life on it - what a waste eh?

God is a little girl because it keeps me honest. You can't stay mad at or hate a little girl, so I think is much better (and more appropriate) that she be that.

It's much better? Well if it's much better, how does that remotely make it any more likely to be true? I mean, how can you be so specific?

EvF

[Tiberius]

I need to make a big sign that says "You have been pwned by Kyuuketsuki".

[Edwardo Piet]

haha

[Pippy]

Hey again all,

I fear that I am sounding a little more like a crazy person than I intended.

To Kyu, my thanks for your reply.

After all that just means you believe it is better, it's just your opinion.

About the level of value or worth in any given theology or mythology... I said that I try to judge the moral messages and ideas within a book against my best model of a 'healthy' state-of-mind or way of living. With my mind. Your quote above is one of my points. All I think I have is my opinion, and I am never hesitant to divulge so. I can say 'To me, the Tao is much better for your life than the Necronomicon', but not that it just is (and has to be for everyone) better. If you can think of a better way for me to judge the value of these works, I would be curious to hear. A process that does not result in me reaching my own conclusions through the best of my understanding...

About the sciences... I think it is like the overall god argument, we are not meant to see eye to eye on this subject. I am personally not very fond of what the 'scientific journals' have to say. Like I said earlier, a simple and fundamental failure to recognize the importance of the intent behind the method. Science is really good at controlling, or learning out of a need to control. I think very strongly that that is unhealthy. Trying to control things you cannot is impossibly stressful, and very dangerous in the long term. Realizing and being humble about the things you cannot control is much better for your quality of life.

The strain that modern sciences and medicine is two-fold. It is not adapting fast enough for the exponential growth curve of human society and civilization. And, either as a result of or causing the adaptation issue, people realizing there is a far better way to think about medicine/physics/reality. By better I mean more honest, healthy, based in reality and 'true' in it's best sense. I see that strain very clearly, but we are standing in different parts of the world.

A flawless rendition of the entirety of the reality we all share would pop our heads off. I know that for a fact, I've seen it happen. I don't know what the epitome of reality is, and I am lead to doubt that you (or ANYone) does. I also don't tell myself that the level of general human knowledge at this point is perfect, that we are done learning.

I don't think we have the same definitions for some of these words. I think of allopathic medicine as the school of treating symptom, from the beginning a failure to think about what is best. I assume naturopathic is based on the root word natural. I put a lot more faith in the natural medicinal solutions than modern. I could go into why, but it seems unimportant. In my life I have seen pharmaceutical medicine destroy very much more than it has created. I have felt what it is like to be under their control (the pharms, not the doctors per se) and cannot call it healthy in any way. All in all though, all I have is opinions.

I would not try to convert you in those shoes. I think you are wrong, but I do not want to make you live what I call is 'right'. One of my rules I didn't mention when I trailed off. Never tell anyone what to do. Makes it very clear who stands on which side. I already wrote that it seems really foolish to me to say that the process of evolution created the process of evolution. If I am seeing things that aren't there, you may be seeing processes that are not.

I thank you for you time, and await your reply.

Quickly to EvF then. Thank you as well for your note. I feel more so that I am getting a little circular in the posts we share. I am only trying to show what I beleive in, in detail, withouot actually trying to convince you. I don't want to talk about evidence, because (like I said to Kyu) I don't think it will be very constructive. My goal is not to convince you that I am right.

In that light, the fact that god personally makes sense to me is a good reason... to me. I believe in two ideas of god. There is (to only me) undeniable evidence and proof that there are forces much larger than I at play here. That is the universal god, yes. I don't know too much for sure about it, and I don't tell myself I know things about it that I do not. Oh yeah, and by it I mean 'they' because I cannot support monotheism. Then there is my depiction of god that is very personal and does exist only in my head. She is my best attempt to relate to the one true god (to use an old term), but is admittedly an imperfect effigy. Much like my distorted personal reality, as mimicry or misunderstanding of the most real reality we all share. So god exists, and an imaginary friend I happen to have named god and representing the real god also exists. One in truth, and one only true in my own head. That is the longest way of saying 'yes and no'.

My assumption of reason is not based on whether or not I want there to be reason. I tried for a long, long time to look at the world free of what I wanted to see, or what I wanted it to be. I think there has to be reason because all of this (being alive, and all the other life around me) would be far to complex, careful and extravagant to just so have happened. There being no reason for life is a terrible reason for life. I don't want there to be intent or meaning, I just am pretty sure there is.

Why do you assume it has to be THIS way for a reason? It's not like it's been perfectly created. There are a lot of fucked up things in the world - and as far as we know, so far, out of all the known planets in the universe - ours is the only one with life on it - what a waste eh?

I appreciated this question the most. I am thinking from the bottom up, not the top down. There does not have to be a reason why 'it happened this way', but it happened this way 'for a reason'. Something didn't intend for life to be this way in particular, but I think someone intended for life to be. Another way, the 'way things are now' has a cause in the momentum of past cause and effect relationships. That is a meaning, a reason. Not a human intent, but just a reason within the workings of the machine (of life). I could not agree more that there are a lot of fucked up things in this world. I don't blame god for those things though. I blame free will. You want no evil? Then you don't get to make any choices or mistakes. The world is fucked, but it is still the most magnificent thing we know. If god made it, we are destroying it (and her?). I don't think us being alone in the universe is very believable anymore. It's about adapting to new information as it becomes available. There is more and more information to suggest we are the furthest thing from alone out here. It is a waste, yes. But also the greatest story ever told. Good and bad, coexisting to make a shade of grey. That god would make a world in which she could cease to exist (makes me smile).

I hope I am making a shred of sense. My biggest thing is that I don't want to argue towards converting you or anyone. I don't want to talk about my evidence, I want to talk about my thoughts and ideas. I want to hear your thoughts and ideas. Not about control, just along for the ride. Thank you very kindly for your time in writing, and especially reading this gargantuan post. Until next time.

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
-Pip

[Giff]

In that light, the fact that god personally makes sense to me is a good reason... to me. I believe in two ideas of god. There is (to only me) undeniable evidence and proof that there are forces much larger than I at play here. That is the universal god, yes. I don't know too much for sure about it, and I don't tell myself I know things about it that I do not. Oh yeah, and by it I mean 'they' because I cannot support monotheism. Then there is my depiction of god that is very personal and does exist only in my head. She is my best attempt to relate to the one true god (to use an old term), but is admittedly an imperfect effigy. Much like my distorted personal reality, as mimicry or misunderstanding of the most real reality we all share. So god exists, and an imaginary friend I happen to have named god and representing the real god also exists. One in truth, and one only true in my own head. That is the longest way of saying 'yes and no'

Sounds more like you wish that it was that way. Since you can't proof it, is your ideas just imagination. Assumptions without any ground to stand on. You don't know that there is something larget at play. It just what you hope and wish for, because it fits your own idea how it must be. It's not a theoritical idea or how it could be, just a dream and how you wish that there is a God. That is to me more like something that is idea for you that make you feel safe. An idea for you without a God make you feel unsafe. It what it seems like.

My assumption of reason is not based on whether or not I want there to be reason. I tried for a long, long time to look at the world free of what I wanted to see, or what I wanted it to be. I think there has to be reason because all of this (being alive, and all the other life around me) would be far to complex, careful and extravagant to just so have happened. There being no reason for life is a terrible reason for life. I don't want there to be intent or meaning, I just am pretty sure there is.

Also like above does this show that you wish and hope more then thinking reasonible. You wish there is some meaning of life, just something you hope. But nothing more then a happy daydream.

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't want to talk about evidence, because (like I said to Kyu) I don't think it will be very constructive. My goal is not to convince you that I am right.

Fair enough. You are here for a 'learning experience', or something like that then? To talk about ideas etc? As I think you say later in your post?

In that light, the fact that god personally makes sense to me is a good reason... to me.

But if you believe God objectively exists...how can you have personal reasons for it? How can you have a personal reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE? Because everyone's personal reasons are different. I do not know how a 'personal reason' (and if it's not simply feelings then I don't know what this personal reason(s) could be?) could be a good reason to believe God exists, when you are talking about something OBJECTIVE here, something objectively existing.

Once again, how can you have your own entirely personal reason to believe in something OBJECTIVE?...And still think it's a good reason?

I believe in two ideas of god. There is (to only me) undeniable evidence and proof that there are forces much larger than I at play here.

And how does it apply any more than anyone elses 'personal reasons'/views? How can this PERSONAL ('only to you') 'undeniable evidence and proof' apply if it's only to you but it's about something OBJECTIVE, which ISN'T only to you? But, if true, would apply to anyone else?

Once again, I am having trouble understanding how you can justify having entirely personal reasons to believe in something objective, something, objectively existing..?

That is the universal god, yes. I don't know too much for sure about it, and I don't tell myself I know things about it that I do not.

So you just tell yourself that he/she/it exists? In which case, how do you know THAT but are not willing to apply any details? Sure - to claim to know DETAILS is more absurd (to me anyway) - but how can you claim to believe he/she exists at all? Ok; not 'KNOW' I've heard you admit you dont 'know', but what reason(s) have you got to believe God exists and yet you haven't got any to apply any details? It seems very vague - what exactly are you interpreting as reason to believe - but not much further than that?

I hope you can understand what I'm talking about here a bit -- because I'm sometimes having difficulty explaining what I mean here.

Oh yeah, and by it I mean 'they' because I cannot support monotheism Then there is my depiction of god that is very personal and does exist only in my head. She is my best attempt to relate to the one true god (to use an old term), but is admittedly an imperfect effigy. Much like my distorted personal reality, as mimicry or misunderstanding of the most real reality we all share. So god exists, and an imaginary friend I happen to have named god and representing the real god also exists. One in truth, and one only true in my own head. That is the longest way of saying 'yes and no'.

So...if I understand you correctly, are you saying that since God is unknowable and perfect (or as close as) according to you, that you are not capable of imagining him/her fully since you are merely a human, a mortal. So your own personal depiction is about as close as you can get.

If so, ok, fair enough. But I still don't understand why you are adding the depiction in the first place, because I still don't understand why you believe in God. What ARE these 'personal reasons' that can seemingly (according to you) give reason to believe in something objective, that God objectively exists? If it's, indeed, it wouldn't be too personal to ask of these 'personal reasons' that give a good reason to believe in something objectively? (I.e a reason(s) to believe God objectively exists, as I said).

I don't want there to be intent or meaning, I just am pretty sure there is.

Why? What do you see around you that makes you believe there's any intention or meaning other than human intention/meaning? (and arguably some other animals PERHAPS - maybe at least (or at least some OF) the other primates).

Why do you assume it has to be THIS way for a reason? It's not like it's been perfectly created. There are a lot of fucked up things in the world - and as far as we know, so far, out of all the known planets in the universe - ours is the only one with life on it - what a waste eh?

I appreciated this question the most. I am thinking from the bottom up, not the top down. There does not have to be a reason why 'it happened this way', but it happened this way 'for a reason'. Something didn't intend for life to be this way in particular, but I think someone intended for life to be.

Why do you think that? What do you know(/believe) that cannot simply be explained WIHOUT adding any ultimate meaning to the universe?

Another way, the 'way things are now' has a cause in the momentum of past cause and effect relationships. That is a meaning, a reason. Not a human intent, but just a reason within the workings of the machine (of life). I could not agree more that there are a lot of fucked up things in this world. I don't blame god for those things though. I blame free will. You want no evil? Then you don't get to make any choices or mistakes. The world is fucked, but it is still the most magnificent thing we know. If god made it, we are destroying it (and her?). I don't think us being alone in the universe is very believable anymore. It's about adapting to new information as it becomes available. There is more and more information to suggest we are the furthest thing from alone out here. It is a waste, yes. But also the greatest story ever told. Good and bad, coexisting to make a shade of grey.

1. I still don't understand why your 'personal reasons' are a reason to believe in an objective God, hence I don't understand why you believe.

2. Do you believe God is perfect...? Because if he is, despite the fact the world can be nice place to live in TOO ...if God does exist, and gave us free will - I still think a PERFECT God could have done a hell of a lot fucking better. Because this world ISN'T perfect. A perfect God could give people free will WITHOUT all the horrible shit...how is that possible? Well - if he's perfect he/she/it can do anything.

That god would make a world in which she could cease to exist (makes me smile).

I don't understand this. You mean...creating the universe and then disappearing and not intervening at all? Kind of like Deism? Or, are you talking of the universe or nature ITSELF being God? Because you seem to talk about us possibly destroying or corupting 'her' (as in God I assume) - as if God is part of the environment, like the universe itself is the same as God?

Rather than God creating the universe and intervening with it - or however many GodS you believe in.

I hope I am making a shred of sense. My biggest thing is that I don't want to argue towards converting you or anyone. I don't want to talk about my evidence, I want to talk about my thoughts and ideas. I want to hear your thoughts and ideas. Not about control, just along for the ride. Thank you very kindly for your time in writing, and especially reading this gargantuan post. Until next time.

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
-Pip

Fair enough about the evidence (I'll try!!) - I'll try and have a discussion. If I understand you correctly then, you are here to learn - particularly about 'ideas'?

And I did enjoy reading your post...it was big so I only read your reply to me and not also your reply to Kyu's...but I enjoyed reading what I DID read of it nonetheless. And I don't have a problem with your gargantuan post.

I can also relate a bit (I THINK) to the way you write...kind of thinking aloud it seems? Kind of like me lol

Well, with me anyway - it's the only way I know how to write. If I didn't write like this - I'd just clog up and wouldn't write at all...

And if I DO write like this...well you can see - and also, AS you can see - I seem to post a lot when I post like this lol (the only way I really know how to post, it comes natural to me).

EvF

[Pippy]

Hey EvF,

Good to hear back from you. I have a little time before work here.

I have 'personal' reasons for believing in an 'objective' thing, i guess because of the duality of god. I call my reasons for god personal, because they are my own. Kind of like the part of god that is my attempt to see her. But god is (to me) objective, everyone else can have their own 'personal' interpretations of her and reasons for her. That includes believing there is no god, which was the joke about god creating a world in which she can cease to exist. It is not a jab at the 'absentee landlord' theory of god, but that it is a great example of free will to be able to not believe in god (when she is undeniable to myself).

I hope I can explain better for you. Not to teach you, just to show what I think. I think god exits for the same reasons I am assuming you think he does not. It is the only option that makes sense to me. I know you can't argue with that very much, and that bugs Kyu. But I don't want to make it more valid than that. I believe what I believe. You all believe what you do. We shan't try to convince one another to change.

I believe there is intent here because of the complexity and scale of life. I don't know how evolution can make such a distinct world. I don't know what could have made evolution (as a process). I see that I am (in one sense) a tiny cell of the living organism that is the closed system of earth. That system of everything may have a kind of 'soul' or 'life' and I want to be humble, thankful and in awe of such a thing. God is because (to me) that makes the most sense. The world just looks designed. But also (more duality) I choose to believe, and what to see of her, because I think it s healthy to be humble. If you could choose between angry and scared, or eternally thankful and impressed, what would you choose?

I don't know if you understood the 'top-down' reason. I know it is word play, but the best example is a riddle. I don't postulate god, then look at the world and see what I see. I try to look at the world as objectively as possible, and then god becomes the reason for it all. Hard to explain. It is the difference between 'god is the reason' and 'the reason is god'. That didn't get it either...

Now I have to leave. God did not in any way make or try to make a 'perfect' world. It is not her agenda. The world is an interesting place, and yes a terrible place in one sense. We can talk more of that later. The problems of the world are not gods fault to me. Not at all.

Really gotta go now or I' gonna be late. Appreciate it and thanks. Take care.

-Pip

[Pippy]

Back,

What a day at work. Ouch. I dislike being the one that is the 'go-between' helping everyone communicate and problem solve effectively... But that is no matter here.

EvF, you have been so polite, and asking very honest questions with a clear attempt only to understand me. I feel badly that I am not doing a very good job making it all make sense to you. Everything I do is kind of off the top of my head.

The two gods should be much more separated I suppose. The objective one seems to be the one I am not explaining well enough. You seem to understand how I admit to creating an image of god (god-doll?) and relating to it for improved quality of life. That is not objective, and my reasons for her are personal in the sense that they would not at all mean anything to you. But you ask repeatedly a similar question.

Once again, I am having trouble understanding how you can justify having entirely personal reasons to believe in something objective, something, objectively existing..?

I apologize for making you ask more than once, and it is a valid query. I believe in the objective god (the one I don't know much about). I believe in it (them) because I have been shown (have learned) enough about the world to see the patterns repeat far too much to have any randomness, anything but (duh-duh-duh) intelligent design. I have learned about the scales of dimension, micro and nanoscopics. I understand that our reality/universe can exist on more than one level of scale (dimension?) at the same time. The dimensions (scales?) cannot really sense or know each other, but they are absolutely the SAME thing at the SAME time. I ask 'Why?' (like a philosopher) about the hypothetical reasons behind being alive, living in this situation. I know most on this site would instantly say 'There is no why', or simply 'why not?'. But 'why not' is still a 'why'. The same as disbelief is still a way of believing. And all that I have seen and learned is unexplainable as a random outcome. Far, far too engineered.

May be a problem is that I use discrediting language on myself so often. I will slip in (with brackets) the little voice that says 'I think' or 'I might be wrong' and 'only to me'. That is because i am trying to be honest, as I have done most of my life. I believe in the objectivity of god (there are only objects and subjects, if humans are to be a subject and not merely an object than something else needs to be the object). Where did that one come from? Weird. I say it is a personal belief from years of conditioning. As much as I guess most of you have been treated poorly because of your beliefs, I attend that I am treated very poorly for mine as well. I just don't live in the bible belt anymore. Very secular here. I think it is absolute, but I'm not gonna try to make others think that if they don't want to.

I don't think god is 'perfect', I am not sure anything is. That would break the law of things always trying to either balance or dominate, but never actually doing so and stopping. Everything is shades of grey of (at least) 2 other things. Duality. One of the aforementioned repeating patterns. Oh yeah, I found out that there is also a repeating pattern of repeating patterns. Another part of the design that makes me smile.

This world is perfect. It just depends on what perfection really is. I could go on and on and on about why the world is 'fucked'. I don't think we should, it is saddening. But the world wasn't made as a pleasure cruise. What do you think this is supposed to be? Life? All the bad in the world is just one player in what we call "The eternal battle between Good and Evil". We should not be bad, and fight against badness. But don't hope for the elimination of 'bad'. This isn't a war we can win, it is two things in constant attempt to balance or dominate one another that don't ever achieve such a state. The world is perfect in a bottom up way. May be that is a good example. The world isn't perfect when you use your imagination to consider what could be better. But it is perfect when judged against the reality of itself. It can be anything, it may as well be perfect. That's the choice. I realized along the path that I can make most anything 'true'. I can lie and manipulate and argue any point, opposing points even. So if I can make 'god' make sense and 'not-god' as well, which should I choose? I think the one that leads me to be happier, healthier and a much better world citizen (not better than you or anything, better than I was before).

I should stop writing, it is more of a rant than I intended. Thank you kindly for being patient with me, and I hope this helps some. It will likely just cause a thousand more relevant questions...

"They call me the working man, I guess that's what I am",
-Pip

[g-mark]

There can be no 'one', for there are many.

[Edwardo Piet]

And many ones....