The Trap of Pure Rationalism

[Minimalist]

Could each of you please give me a logical reason that you do not believe in God?

I see no evidence for any of the various gods invented by mankind.

Provide some and I'll consider it.


This philosophical shit is merely mental masturbation.

[Anomalocaris]

I would tell you to seek God,

Such outrageously insufferable would be presumption

Could each of you please give me a logical reason that you do not believe in God?

Please go into more depth than, "Why would I believe in some spaghetti monster in the sky?" That is not a logical reason. It assumes the answer.

Another moron who thinks his wish thinking can be made to trump the fruit of intellectual rigor through his mere assertion. The logical reason is when won't stoop to being like you.

[lucent]

I am new here on the boards, so greetings to anyone who reads. I have been reading "Orthodoxy" by G. K. Chesterton and would like to present some of his thoughts on rationalism as I have processed them.

Opening Statement: Pure rationalism leads to both determinism and materialism which ultimately deprive us of our humanity.

Pure Rationalism Defined: Nothing can be accepted as fact which cannot be explained and observed from its first principle in its entirety.

Big Idea: Pure rationalism is a trap that can only be escaped by allowing for that which is mysterious. "Man can only understand everything else by what he does not understand... The mystic allows one thing to be mysterious, and everything else becomes lucid." (47)

Body: My argument is simple. If you are a pure rationalist and cannot accept as fact anything not observable and explainable, then you are trapped in a box that no longer allows for the existence of common humanity as a greater principle. You can be kind, but there is no such thing as kindness. Because nothing beyond the rational box exists, kindness itself, which is really beyond the box, cannot exist except in your own imaginings.

In order to be freed from this box, you must accept a mystery; something you cannot fully understand. Only then can humanity be restored.

"...when materialism leads men to complete fatalism (as it generally does), it is quite idle to pretend that it is in any sense a liberating force." (42)

I think Dawkins takes this to its logical conclusion:

The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference

A purely materialistic view of reality is also a purely determinalistic one. The arrangement of atoms at the beginning of Universe has already determined every thought you will ever have. Our consciousness being based on unconscious processes that precede it, and our rationality derived from irrational forces. The inevitable conclusion to this is nihilism, that there is no meaning to any of it, nor could there be.

Freedom of will is only ever something which could be given by God, and without God, no such thing exists. As dawkins says, no good, no evil, no meaning, no purpose. Humans in this view are just chemicals and clockwork, moving from point a to point b with no meaningful awareness. And the Universe as well..its ultimate destiny inevitable and irrevocable. In short, total futility.

[Ace Otana]

I would tell you to seek God, but that requires believing in God first.

Out of the question. Before we assume that god did anything, you must first demonstrate that a god exists. You just want to skip the god existence thing and go straight to what he supposedly did, because you can't support god's existence, and you know it.

A does not prove B without first proving A. Demonstrate that a god exists and then we can move onto other assumptions. I won't presuppose his existence because you can't back the assertion up.

[downbeatplumb]

I think Dawkins takes this to its logical conclusion:

The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference

A purely materialistic view of reality is also a purely determinalistic one. The arrangement of atoms at the beginning of Universe has already determined every thought you will ever have. Our consciousness being based on unconscious processes that precede it, and our rationality derived from irrational forces. The inevitable conclusion to this is nihilism, that there is no meaning to any of it, nor could there be.

Freedom of will is only ever something which could be given by God, and without God, no such thing exists. As dawkins says, no good, no evil, no meaning, no purpose. Humans in this view are just chemicals and clockwork, moving from point a to point b with no meaningful awareness. And the Universe as well..its ultimate destiny inevitable and irrevocable. In short, total futility.

Except of course, you are wrong.

I am curently thinking of a banana in a purple tutu.

Was this a god given thought, no.

Was this the inevitable result of random atoms interacting, pre ordained since the big bang, no.

What happened, you see, was that creatures evolved the ability to think for themselves which openned up a world of possibilities.

The trouble with a lot of theist thinking is that it is very black or white, it is either this or that, here is no room in their limited thinking for shades of grey.

It is really surprising how very simple thinks can get complex all by themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuBvj0pw-E

[lucent]

Except of course, you are wrong.

I am curently thinking of a banana in a purple tutu.

Was this a god given thought, no.

How do you know?

Was this the inevitable result of random atoms interacting, pre ordained since the big bang, no.

Unless you want to say the mind is immaterial, the conclusion of determinism is inescapable.

What happened, you see, was that creatures evolved the ability to think for themselves which openned up a world of possibilities.

All of which go from point a to point b based on cause and effect. If the conditions were the same as they were prior to your thought of the banana, you will always think of the banana every time.

The trouble with a lot of theist thinking is that it is very black or white, it is either this or that, here is no room in their limited thinking for shades of grey.

The trouble with stereotypes is that they make you stereotypical. You need to read more philosophy. Try Nietzsche

It is really surprising how very simple thinks can get complex all by themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuBvj0pw-E

Cause and effect is a very simple concept

[Elihu]

1) I don't believe in voices in my head

2) My belief is not based on a mystical experience

3) A complex question requires a complex answer

One reason I believe in the Christian God is the same reason that an intelligent atheist is an atheist. The evidence I have found, when gathered and accumulated, points in that direction. Below is a very brief list to begin with.

Preface: The number of reasons any one person accepts a particular view is normally extraordinarily long and includes thoughts, experiences, etc. Obviously I cannot present all of those even in one book, let a lone a board post. Please keep this in mind as you evaluate what follows. These are not, by themselves, any sort of proof. Only tiny pieces in a much, much bigger puzzle.

1) While you may not agree with the Bible's description of the fall, man's sinfulness, etc. It sure does make perfect sense out of the screwed up world we live in. (Obviously this fact does not make it true, only sensible)

2) Regardless of how you believe man came about, no animals exhibit the moral or spiritual tendencies present in man. An ape does not worship the sun. In fact, an ape worships nothing at all. The idea of worship has never crossed its mind. Nor has the fact that slaughtering its fellow ape might be wrong.

[The Grand Nudger]

Makes sense of our world? The pagan says the same of his faith. By the by, I don't think the world is so screwed up. I guess it only makes sense of your opinions. I use the word sense very loosely.

Your value judgements on the greatness or unique nature of yourself as opposed to animals is most likely only the result of predictable bias. Bears take one look at you and realize you'd make a shitty bear. Maybe that's evidence for the bear god?

I thought you said you had intelligent reasons, evidence?

[Norfolk And Chance]

1) I don't believe in voices in my head

2) My belief is not based on a mystical experience

3) A complex question requires a complex answer

One reason I believe in the Christian God is the same reason that an intelligent atheist is an atheist. The evidence I have found, when gathered and accumulated, points in that direction. Below is a very brief list to begin with.

Preface: The number of reasons any one person accepts a particular view is normally extraordinarily long and includes thoughts, experiences, etc. Obviously I cannot present all of those even in one book, let a lone a board post. Please keep this in mind as you evaluate what follows. These are not, by themselves, any sort of proof. Only tiny pieces in a much, much bigger puzzle.

1) While you may not agree with the Bible's description of the fall, man's sinfulness, etc. It sure does make perfect sense out of the screwed up world we live in. (Obviously this fact does not make it true, only sensible)

2) Regardless of how you believe man came about, no animals exhibit the moral or spiritual tendencies present in man. An ape does not worship the sun. In fact, an ape worships nothing at all. The idea of worship has never crossed its mind. Nor has the fact that slaughtering its fellow ape might be wrong.

You don't believe in voices in your head? Yet you believe in a book written by people who believed in voices in their head?

By the way, of course apes don't worship the sun, they are not evolved enough to form a complex language where they could actually ask that question - then just make up an answer because they don't know the answer and instruct the question asker to worship the sun.

[Elihu]

Lol, yeah, I would be a pretty bad bear.

I do believe that, assuming God exist, He can speak to people... I just happen not to think that God has come down and whispered in my ear. Not that it is impossible for God to speak to me, but God has not in that way.

I don't actually think I need to prove God's existence. He can do that Himself if He wants.