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Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 20, 2009 at 8:39 am
If the wingnuts are right have you ever wondered what God's timeline would be like? PZ Myers has: God's timeline
But if you really think about it this is a problem for ordinary theists too ... if the universe was created by a god that exists (necessarily) independent and therefore outside of the universe (even if it does somehow delve inside) then its version of time would be much longer ... so what exactly did the big man do for all that time?
Kyu
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 20, 2009 at 4:12 pm
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2009 at 4:14 pm by fr0d0.)
Maybe God created an infinite number of Universes and made minute differences in each one and is watching how they all develop. Outside of time, which I think the regular definition of God has it, is it an even bigger problem? Like Q/ the Q Continuum in Star Trek, or the Bajoran prophets, existence in non linear time is a whole different ball game.
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 20, 2009 at 11:23 pm
(This post was last modified: April 20, 2009 at 11:25 pm by athoughtfulman.)
I'm with frodo here in that I think it is rash to apply our idea of linear time to a supposed god.
If god did exist (what the theist proposes) then his timeline wouldn't exist in the form of a line. Imagine drawing a straight line on a piece of paper; our time is the line, and god's is the paper.
Just had a look at that timeline on Pharyngula - impressive. Gives an idea of the stupidity to think god could exist in a day-by-day sense.
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 21, 2009 at 3:29 am
(April 20, 2009 at 11:23 pm)athoughtfulman Wrote: I'm with frodo here in that I think it is rash to apply our idea of linear time to a supposed god.
If god did exist (what the theist proposes) then his timeline wouldn't exist in the form of a line. Imagine drawing a straight line on a piece of paper; our time is the line, and god's is the paper.
Just had a look at that timeline on Pharyngula - impressive. Gives an idea of the stupidity to think god could exist in a day-by-day sense.
Well perhaps but I believe more recent hypotheses are that time isn't linear anyway or is at least two directional and it's just our perception of time that is.
The problem, of course, with the god-made alternate universes idea is that the Christian god is understood to be all-knowing, all-powerful etc. etc. and as such wouldn't need to see how other universes developed because it knows already (something that screws the free-will argument as well).
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 21, 2009 at 4:22 am
Exactly. If god were all-knowing and all-powerful then he predetermines by default, as he can see the outcome of every act he can commit. Whenever he might contemplate doing something, he can see the exact course it takes over time and every result and consequence of what he did.
When he created the world, he knew full well that the devil was the snake and that Adam and Eve would fall, but he did it regardless. He also put a tree in the garden with the knowledge that Adam and Eve would sin and eat from it.
Why did he do it? I don't think there is a good answer to that question - either one must discard it as nonsensical or choose to believe in spite of it; in spite of the fact that god, with full knowledge of the outcome allowed evil to be present. And that just begs the question, why did god create evil?
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 21, 2009 at 4:17 pm
I don't believe 'in spite of it'. I believe without any misconceptions that any human candy cotton idea I may have doesn't hold a candle to this beautiful Universe, created or not.
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 21, 2009 at 10:59 pm
What are you saying?
That you recognise the evil in the world, hold no candy cotton ideas about it, yet continue to believe? That's what I'm saying. I recognise that. What I'm asking is why would one continue to believe when it is clear that god created an earth and subsequently either created evil or let evil come into it.
When parents are bring up their kids, they don't want their kids exposed to violence, sex, and drugs. Instead, they do their best to keep them out of the home. It's in the nature to be protective like that. And I'm sure that if they had the power to do it, they'd keep their kids well clear of any interfering force.
God's all powerful. God's something akin to a parent. So why would god create a world, create a race to worship him, if he lets them be exposed to all kinds of 'sin'? It would seem that god is more like a lazy parent than an omnipotent deity.
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 22, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Protecting your kid against bad stuff is only natural. It does nothing to prepare them for life. The God idea presents children who are free to rebel or not. It's better that your kids choose to love you rather than giving them no choice. This is the mark of a responsible parent. What you're proposing isn't.
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 23, 2009 at 5:42 am
No you misunderstood me.
I'm not proposing that god make us love him.
I'm saying that the parent is attached to their child, not to make the child love them, but to keep them safe and protect them. If god is all-powerful and all-knowing then all he'd have to do is click his fingers to avert at least some of the evil in the world, or better yet, he should have created it in the beginning with less evil. Things like natural disasters and disease - what reason did god have to create them? If he was all-knowing then he knew they were going to come, and if he was all-powerful then he could remove them, but what does he do? He leaves them here for us to deal with.
God could easily get rid of evil in the world while still giving us the freedom to choose between loving him or not.
If a parent was all-powerful and all-knowing and saw that their child was going to come face-to-face with drugs one day, I'm sure they'd make the drugs disappear, but this doesn't mean their child will love them. Or imagine if their child was going to get hit by a car, if the parent could do anything about it, such as stopping the car before it hit the child, then I bet almost everyone would do it.
I would even bet that there would be at least a few parents who would switch spots with their child in the case of a car accident fatality. If they could go back to the time when it happened, they'd push the child out of the way, only to die. They'd do it because they had the power to do so. The only reason it didn't actually happen was that they weren't all-knowing.
Now god is meant to be all-knowing. He's meant to be all-powerful too. Yet with all his power and foresight he doesn't move a finger when it comes to human suffering. Or suppose he did already, only we didn't see it. There's still a hell of a lot of evil in the world; if god's all-powerful, why doesn't he get rid of that too?
What god might do to get rid of evil has no bearing on whether he makes us love him or not. He can still save the world while letting us retain our freedom.
Some might say he already saved the world with jesus, so why should he get rid of the evil present now? If that's true, then god's just sadistic; a cruel overlord who enjoys watching his creation suffer.
As I said earlier, Epicurus sums it up nicely:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
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RE: Pharyngula: God's Timeline
April 23, 2009 at 6:39 am
(April 23, 2009 at 5:42 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: As I said earlier, Epicurus sums it up nicely:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
That's a beautiful way of summing it up isn't it?
Kyu
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