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(December 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:
(December 17, 2011 at 2:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why should it make any difference whether Ehrman or any other scholar of scripture is a believer or not? Doesn't the holy word stand on its own merit? Isn't the truth still the truth no matter what a person believes?
Well, by golly, it should be if it's one of those objective, eternal thingies that theists keep going on about.
Perhaps it's that G-C thinks that us "godless nits" are incapable of observing objective, eternal truth?
What rational explanation might account for that?
My reference was only pointed toward Ehrman and Min, sorry if I offended anyone.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(December 17, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
When I was a Fundamentalist Christian I purchased both "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ". I thought it would be fun. I thought it would help me answer those nagging questions I had always had about Christianity. I was sourly disappointed. His book was just a collection of flimsy arguments that any jr high school student could pick apart. I expected better of him because he, supposedly, was one of the best apologists that the Christian faith had. I read the book sincerely hoping to find solid arguments and real facts. I got neither. The dissapointment was pretty awful.
Strobel and people like him pushed me towards atheism because their inability to debate or provide solid fact led me to seek these things out myself.
In defense of the fundies though, consider that most of them don't know of the existence of any other information that could disprove the Bible and god. Christianity is a closed system. Lee Strobel's books are on the tacitly approved list of books, other books aren't even mentioned. One has to look in places where one would not ordinarily look to find information. Real books that disprove the Bible are almost never mentioned. It's hard to search for a title that you don't even know exists. I had no idea that "The Bible Unearthed" existed until someone on this forum suggested it (I recently bought the book BTW.) On the other hand, I did know about and do possess several books that "prove" the biblical stories.
Also consider availability of books that disprove the Bible. I recently did a library search on atheist books (electronic Kindle edition) in my counties library. Note that my county contains the 4th largest city in the United States (Houston). I found book after book on several different topics on Christianity but no, not one, Richard Dawkins book. I did find a few Hitchens books. I'm thinking about a campaign in my area to flood the county library system with Atheist books.
My point is that there is a serious disproportion even in the public library between available Christian books and available atheist books. This could lead one to believe that not only do atheist books not exist, but also (if they did indeed manage to come across an atheist book) that their argument might not be as valid as that of Christians because there is so little information.
Blaming others for your unbelief want fly, not before man and especially before God. I've read books that try to disprove christianity and found them to be bias and worded to deceive the readers they hold no truth in them that would serve mankind. The reason there is a disproportion of material is do to the amount of interest in the materials, if people want them they are out there, give people credit they know how to get the books if they want them.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
December 17, 2011 at 10:55 pm (This post was last modified: December 17, 2011 at 10:56 pm by elly.)
Funny, I could say the exact thing about the books that try to PROVE Christianity. At least the books disproving religion are usually grounded in science.
"I'm not going to ask if you just said what I think you just said, because I know it's what you said."
(December 17, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
When I was a Fundamentalist Christian I purchased both "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ". I thought it would be fun. I thought it would help me answer those nagging questions I had always had about Christianity. I was sourly disappointed. His book was just a collection of flimsy arguments that any jr high school student could pick apart. I expected better of him because he, supposedly, was one of the best apologists that the Christian faith had. I read the book sincerely hoping to find solid arguments and real facts. I got neither. The dissapointment was pretty awful.
Strobel and people like him pushed me towards atheism because their inability to debate or provide solid fact led me to seek these things out myself.
In defense of the fundies though, consider that most of them don't know of the existence of any other information that could disprove the Bible and god. Christianity is a closed system. Lee Strobel's books are on the tacitly approved list of books, other books aren't even mentioned. One has to look in places where one would not ordinarily look to find information. Real books that disprove the Bible are almost never mentioned. It's hard to search for a title that you don't even know exists. I had no idea that "The Bible Unearthed" existed until someone on this forum suggested it (I recently bought the book BTW.) On the other hand, I did know about and do possess several books that "prove" the biblical stories.
Also consider availability of books that disprove the Bible. I recently did a library search on atheist books (electronic Kindle edition) in my counties library. Note that my county contains the 4th largest city in the United States (Houston). I found book after book on several different topics on Christianity but no, not one, Richard Dawkins book. I did find a few Hitchens books. I'm thinking about a campaign in my area to flood the county library system with Atheist books.
My point is that there is a serious disproportion even in the public library between available Christian books and available atheist books. This could lead one to believe that not only do atheist books not exist, but also (if they did indeed manage to come across an atheist book) that their argument might not be as valid as that of Christians because there is so little information.
Blaming others for your unbelief want fly, not before man and especially before God. I've read books that try to disprove christianity and found them to be bias and worded to deceive the readers they hold no truth in them that would serve mankind. The reason there is a disproportion of material is do to the amount of interest in the materials, if people want them they are out there, give people credit they know how to get the books if they want them.
Had I found the answers in Christianity I would not have needed to go elsewhere for answers. As it stands Very few Christians were skilled in debate and were pathetic at providing answers. As for God I would love for him to give me the answers. I'd welcome it. After 30 years this hasn't happened.
As for books that disprove Christianity the one's I've read use the scientific method. They use reason and provable facts. Most acknowledge areas where there is lack of knowledge. They also label (usually) areas that are speculative as apposed to proven fact.
You are probably right about the supply reflecting the demand. As for me I really wish I had known this information existed a few decades ago. It would have saved me a lot of bullshit.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
December 18, 2011 at 3:03 am (This post was last modified: December 18, 2011 at 3:05 am by Godscreated.)
(December 18, 2011 at 12:09 am)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
(December 17, 2011 at 10:15 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(December 17, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
When I was a Fundamentalist Christian I purchased both "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ". I thought it would be fun. I thought it would help me answer those nagging questions I had always had about Christianity. I was sourly disappointed. His book was just a collection of flimsy arguments that any jr high school student could pick apart. I expected better of him because he, supposedly, was one of the best apologists that the Christian faith had. I read the book sincerely hoping to find solid arguments and real facts. I got neither. The dissapointment was pretty awful.
Strobel and people like him pushed me towards atheism because their inability to debate or provide solid fact led me to seek these things out myself.
In defense of the fundies though, consider that most of them don't know of the existence of any other information that could disprove the Bible and god. Christianity is a closed system. Lee Strobel's books are on the tacitly approved list of books, other books aren't even mentioned. One has to look in places where one would not ordinarily look to find information. Real books that disprove the Bible are almost never mentioned. It's hard to search for a title that you don't even know exists. I had no idea that "The Bible Unearthed" existed until someone on this forum suggested it (I recently bought the book BTW.) On the other hand, I did know about and do possess several books that "prove" the biblical stories.
Also consider availability of books that disprove the Bible. I recently did a library search on atheist books (electronic Kindle edition) in my counties library. Note that my county contains the 4th largest city in the United States (Houston). I found book after book on several different topics on Christianity but no, not one, Richard Dawkins book. I did find a few Hitchens books. I'm thinking about a campaign in my area to flood the county library system with Atheist books.
My point is that there is a serious disproportion even in the public library between available Christian books and available atheist books. This could lead one to believe that not only do atheist books not exist, but also (if they did indeed manage to come across an atheist book) that their argument might not be as valid as that of Christians because there is so little information.
Blaming others for your unbelief want fly, not before man and especially before God. I've read books that try to disprove christianity and found them to be bias and worded to deceive the readers they hold no truth in them that would serve mankind. The reason there is a disproportion of material is do to the amount of interest in the materials, if people want them they are out there, give people credit they know how to get the books if they want them.
ZS Wrote:Had I found the answers in Christianity I would not have needed to go elsewhere for answers. As it stands Very few Christians were skilled in debate and were pathetic at providing answers. As for God I would love for him to give me the answers. I'd welcome it. After 30 years this hasn't happened.
The only reason I can see for Christians to have a debate would be over a certain point of theology, not over whether God existed. I think to many christians worry over, "am I wasting my time believing what seems impossible," when they should remember that chritianity is faith, and as Christ has said faith in the unbelievable. It took years for me to understand that to know came through faith, that through faith God will prove himself to faithful believers. Now I have no doubts about the reality of God and the salvation that comes with faith. I have seen God working, doing things in my life that would have been impossible for me to have accomplished on my own, understanding who I am and what I can do and can not do helped me to see what God was doing. God asks us to trust him in faith and he will show us who he is in our lives. That's why Paul continually preached about submitting ourselves to Christ, in that way we would see ourselves as we really are, then we would be able to see God working in and through us, in other words, we would hear God speaking to us through his actions in us.
Quote:As for books that disprove Christianity the one's I've read use the scientific method. They use reason and provable facts. Most acknowledge areas where there is lack of knowledge. They also label (usually) areas that are speculative as apposed to proven fact.
It really strikes me funny when people say that someone's used science to disprove the spiritual. Faith and science are like magnets with there poles pointed at each other, they just want come together at least not until the magnets come to understand how they actually work. This is what I meant when I said, if one lives in faith with God that He will prove himself to you by bringing you to a true understanding of yourself.
Quote:You are probably right about the supply reflecting the demand. As for me I really wish I had known this information existed a few decades ago. It would have saved me a lot of bullshit.
Could be that God was giving you more time to live out your faith so he could show you that he's real.
(December 18, 2011 at 12:09 am)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
(December 17, 2011 at 10:15 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(December 17, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
When I was a Fundamentalist Christian I purchased both "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for Christ". I thought it would be fun. I thought it would help me answer those nagging questions I had always had about Christianity. I was sourly disappointed. His book was just a collection of flimsy arguments that any jr high school student could pick apart. I expected better of him because he, supposedly, was one of the best apologists that the Christian faith had. I read the book sincerely hoping to find solid arguments and real facts. I got neither. The dissapointment was pretty awful.
Strobel and people like him pushed me towards atheism because their inability to debate or provide solid fact led me to seek these things out myself.
In defense of the fundies though, consider that most of them don't know of the existence of any other information that could disprove the Bible and god. Christianity is a closed system. Lee Strobel's books are on the tacitly approved list of books, other books aren't even mentioned. One has to look in places where one would not ordinarily look to find information. Real books that disprove the Bible are almost never mentioned. It's hard to search for a title that you don't even know exists. I had no idea that "The Bible Unearthed" existed until someone on this forum suggested it (I recently bought the book BTW.) On the other hand, I did know about and do possess several books that "prove" the biblical stories.
Also consider availability of books that disprove the Bible. I recently did a library search on atheist books (electronic Kindle edition) in my counties library. Note that my county contains the 4th largest city in the United States (Houston). I found book after book on several different topics on Christianity but no, not one, Richard Dawkins book. I did find a few Hitchens books. I'm thinking about a campaign in my area to flood the county library system with Atheist books.
My point is that there is a serious disproportion even in the public library between available Christian books and available atheist books. This could lead one to believe that not only do atheist books not exist, but also (if they did indeed manage to come across an atheist book) that their argument might not be as valid as that of Christians because there is so little information.
Blaming others for your unbelief want fly, not before man and especially before God. I've read books that try to disprove christianity and found them to be bias and worded to deceive the readers they hold no truth in them that would serve mankind. The reason there is a disproportion of material is do to the amount of interest in the materials, if people want them they are out there, give people credit they know how to get the books if they want them.
ZS Wrote:Had I found the answers in Christianity I would not have needed to go elsewhere for answers. As it stands Very few Christians were skilled in debate and were pathetic at providing answers. As for God I would love for him to give me the answers. I'd welcome it. After 30 years this hasn't happened.
The only reason I can see for Christians to have a debate would be over a certain point of theology, not over whether God existed. I think to many christians worry over, "am I wasting my time believing what seems impossible," when they should remember that chritianity is faith, and as Christ has said faith in the unbelievable. It took years for me to understand that to know came through faith, that through faith God will prove himself to faithful believers. Now I have no doubts about the reality of God and the salvation that comes with faith. I have seen God working, doing things in my life that would have been impossible for me to have accomplished on my own, understanding who I am and what I can do and can not do helped me to see what God was doing. God asks us to trust him in faith and he will show us who he is in our lives. That's why Paul continually preached about submitting ourselves to Christ, in that way we would see ourselves as we really are, then we would be able to see God working in and through us, in other words, we would hear God speaking to us through his actions in us.
ZS Wrote:As for books that disprove Christianity the one's I've read use the scientific method. They use reason and provable facts. Most acknowledge areas where there is lack of knowledge. They also label (usually) areas that are speculative as apposed to proven fact.
It really strikes me funny when people say that someone's used science to disprove the spiritual. Faith and science are like magnets with there poles pointed at each other, they just want come together at least not until the magnets come to understand how they actually work. This is what I meant when I said, if one lives in faith with God that He will prove himself to you by bringing you to a true understanding of yourself.
ZS Wrote:You are probably right about the supply reflecting the demand. As for me I really wish I had known this information existed a few decades ago. It would have saved me a lot of bullshit.
Could be that God was giving you more time to live out your faith so he could show you that he's real.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
December 18, 2011 at 7:46 pm (This post was last modified: December 18, 2011 at 7:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Blaming others for your unbelief won't fly, not before man and especially before Allah. I've read books that try to disprove Islam and found them to be bias and worded to deceive the readers they hold no truth in them that would serve mankind.
Pious prick.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
To Godschild: Umm, I had 30 years for God to prove that he's real, technically 42 years. I was a better believer than most. I had a solid belief in god. He was very real to me.
For 3 decades I couldn't understand Atheists. How could they not have the ability to believe? Why was this so? Some of these people had eagerly sought god at one point in their lives and did not find him. How could they not have found him, yet I did? If they could only see what I saw, be able to experience what I experienced then they would believe....if only. It made no sense to me why they couldn't do this.
For most people I knew I could not chalk any of the cause for their unbelief on a simple desire to live in sin and debauchery. I noted time and again that those without god often had better ethics. Yes some of them drank beer and or lived in sin with their girlfriends but, unlike a lot of the god fearing Christians I knew, they weren't assholes. What made the Christians assholes was often the religion. Religion produced ambitions and opportunities to abuse others that did not exist in the non Christian world. For example, I remember when my family and I had to move out of state and needed some help putting things on the moving van. Though I had helpped some members of my church move, these same people were unavailable when I needed their help. The non Christians were the ones who helped. Little things like this are common when you are a Christian. And to answer your next question Godschild, don't give me that bullshit response "well it doesn't happen in my church because ________"(enter excuse in the blank). Unless you've lived under a rock or are new to the faith you've seen the bullshit yourself.
As for blame. Perhaps the real blame lies in the religion itself. If it wasn't bullshit it would be able to prove itself to not be bullshit. This sort of leaves people like Lee Strobel off the hook.....sort of. They are doing the best they can with what they have. I couldn't accept their arguments and was embarrassed by their stupidity. This kept me looking, I just didn't find what I thought I'd find. I guess this is where the saying "you can't create something out of nothing" sort of works. You can't make something real that wasn't real in the first place.
As for Apostasy, it was mind boggling to me. Why would anyone who has known the father choose to leave? I could understand why someone would leave the religion. There's a lot of abuse and assholes there. I felt bad for those who had to leave because of abuse. I could also understand those who left because they wanted to drink and fool around. I couldn't understand those people who didn't leave out of hurt and bitterness or a desire to follow carnal desires. It's like god just evaporated from their lives. Now I find myself in their shoes. It's a weird situation.
One more thing. Brain science and psychology has done a lot to explain why people experience or seem to experience "spiritual" phenomena. I'm working my way through this stuff. So far science has answered more questions than 30 years of Christianity has done. Furthermore science is provable and reproducible. It's a lot more reliable way to explain spiritual phenomena than religion.
I have studied the Bible and the theology behind Christianity for many years. I have been to many churches. I have walked the depth and the breadth of the religion and, as a result of this, I have a lot of bullshit to scrape off the bottom of my shoes. ~Ziploc Surprise
(December 19, 2011 at 1:32 am)Ziploc Surprise Wrote:
To Godschild: Umm, I had 30 years for God to prove that he's real, technically 42 years. I was a better believer than most. I had a solid belief in god. He was very real to me.
For 3 decades I couldn't understand Atheists. How could they not have the ability to believe? Why was this so? Some of these people had eagerly sought god at one point in their lives and did not find him. How could they not have found him, yet I did? If they could only see what I saw, be able to experience what I experienced then they would believe....if only. It made no sense to me why they couldn't do this.
For most people I knew I could not chalk any of the cause for their unbelief on a simple desire to live in sin and debauchery. I noted time and again that those without god often had better ethics. Yes some of them drank beer and or lived in sin with their girlfriends but, unlike a lot of the god fearing Christians I knew, they weren't assholes. What made the Christians assholes was often the religion. Religion produced ambitions and opportunities to abuse others that did not exist in the non Christian world. For example, I remember when my family and I had to move out of state and needed some help putting things on the moving van. Though I had helpped some members of my church move, these same people were unavailable when I needed their help. The non Christians were the ones who helped. Little things like this are common when you are a Christian. And to answer your next question Godschild, don't give me that bullshit response "well it doesn't happen in my church because ________"(enter excuse in the blank). Unless you've lived under a rock or are new to the faith you've seen the bullshit yourself.
As for blame. Perhaps the real blame lies in the religion itself. If it wasn't bullshit it would be able to prove itself to not be bullshit. This sort of leaves people like Lee Strobel off the hook.....sort of. They are doing the best they can with what they have. I couldn't accept their arguments and was embarrassed by their stupidity. This kept me looking, I just didn't find what I thought I'd find. I guess this is where the saying "you can't create something out of nothing" sort of works. You can't make something real that wasn't real in the first place.
As for Apostasy, it was mind boggling to me. Why would anyone who has known the father choose to leave? I could understand why someone would leave the religion. There's a lot of abuse and assholes there. I felt bad for those who had to leave because of abuse. I could also understand those who left because they wanted to drink and fool around. I couldn't understand those people who didn't leave out of hurt and bitterness or a desire to follow carnal desires. It's like god just evaporated from their lives. Now I find myself in their shoes. It's a weird situation.
One more thing. Brain science and psychology has done a lot to explain why people experience or seem to experience "spiritual" phenomena. I'm working my way through this stuff. So far science has answered more questions than 30 years of Christianity has done. Furthermore science is provable and reproducible. It's a lot more reliable way to explain spiritual phenomena than religion.
GC Wrote:Let's get one thing out of the way, I understand how you felt. I've done things for many in my church and have not received help when I needed it and not only does it seem wrong, it is wrong. Now to be truthful I've done the same thing. There are verses in scripture that says to trust in man (christian or not) will lead to disappointment, you and I have both experienced this. As a christian I must rely on God who is always faithful. In your move when no one from your church would help you can you be sure that God did not send non christians to help you. If you know scripture well then you know God said he will work good through those that believe and those who do not believe. Could be that God was faithful to you and like me you did not recognize that he did. To often christians get caught up in their troubles and not realize God is with us. A christians main focus should always be God and allow him to do through us what he wants to do for others and by what you have said you were doing that. I don't know but maybe you were the better christian in your church and they needed you as their example, God could have called you to that very work, did you ever consider that possibility. I know he has used me in some ways that I would have never chosen myself for but, I did realize after a while what was happening and knew God was not only active in my life but chose me to do certain works through. To this very day I have no idea why, other than it pleased him. In doing so he made me look good, which I'm not, and brought glory to himself through me, I do not know what could be greater in my life than that. The problem with a lot of christians is they treat christianity like a religion and make something out of it it's not.
I also have problems understanding why people would turn away from God. I do understand those who only played the role to be accepted. I also think I understand those who want to live by the Law of Moses and make themselves better for God instead of allowing Christ to work through them and make them who he knows they can be. They soon get discouraged with trying to do the impossible and leave the church. Now for those who have been faithful for years and walked with God and turn their backs on God, well I do not know if I can ever understand those. What I do know is to turn from God because of others is crazy, I'm guilty of that and regret what I did. As I have said before science trying to explain the spiritual life is useless as anything could be. Science needs God to be a phenomena, if it's to survive as it is today. Science and God can go hand in hand, I'm not against science I like it and enjoy many things I've learned through it.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
