Being a sinner just for being born

[KevinM1]

I just fail to see the meaningful difference between:

Being punished directly for Adam's sin

And

Inheriting a sinful nature from him

Since the end result is the same.

[robvalue]

Yeah. The second just sounds like a way of trying to justify an obviously fucked up idea. The same guy punishes me for the same thing, which has nothing to do with me. Fuck that. You can't sweeten that pill. It's more mafia boss stuff. "Your great grandfather did a bad thing, he stole from us, and the debt has not been repaid. Now it's your knee caps on the line. It's not my fault, it's how my mafia organisation which I started and made the rules for works."

If we inherit sin, that's how God designed it. So he can't wash his hands of the deal. And we end up getting punished (or at least treated less well) if we don't accept vicarious redemption. Well, I don't accept it. It's immoral as well as insane. "I hit myself on the foot with a shovel for your mortgage." I forget which comic said that.

No one gets to tell me how sin does and doesn't work anyway, since it's not been demonstrated to be anything other than imaginary. If we're just talking about people's personal fantasy land in their head, it can work however they want.

[KevinM1]

It's abundantly clear that the idea of a tainted bloodline was created before the world understood genetics. Because if sin is hereditary, then we should know more about it (genome mapping) and could conceivably come up with a cure that doesn't require religion.

[robvalue]

But wait, it's science-proof. Just like everything that separates religion from observable reality. It has to be, so they can continue to make the argument from ignorance.

Yet we can still "know" about it, by believing stuff ignorant people wrote down thousands of years ago. Who needs science eh?

Better choose the right group of ignorant people to believe though. It's not like there's a way of testing which one got it right. The failed assumption is that any of them got it right.

[The Valkyrie]

I don't see anything outside of normal Christian language. I don't think you understand the context of their comments. Ask a specific question and perhaps I can shed some light on their phrasing or underlying belief.

What is your favorite electromagnet wavelenght?

Terry.

[Gemini]

I think the fallen state makes sinning highly probable. However, at the same time, I think that free will guarantees it (with or without sin nature).

Okay, but what about Christian doctrine?

[Ignorant]

I just fail to see the meaningful difference between:

Being punished directly for Adam's sin

And

Inheriting a sinful nature from him

Since the end result is the same.

I think this is a great question/insight, and I am pretty sure Gemini points out the same here and here (I'm sure others did as well, but those posts stuck out).

This is an important difficulty which must be recognized as a difficulty. Attempts to "rationalize" this away lead unhealthy humanity as the OP gave evidence with her 'friend'. Good and human shock seems an appropriate response.

It's not so much that I don't understand it's more of shock. I've been around Christians all my life and I know the whole if you don't believe you go to hell part but just the way their conversation made their god sound scary yet they were all so happy about it made me question why they don't see it. I don't think I have ever heard them speak so bluntly. One even went on to say that the good are being punished because of the bad. I thought that going through bad things wasn't a punishment I thought it was god's will and in his plan. So his plan is to punish everyone regardless of if you follow him?  I reckon I'm more so complaining than asking anything. It just seems a bit too much like Westborough Church and that angered me.

I, personally, would trust your emotion here. At the source of the anger is a genuine love for other people (humanity in general) you don't want to go through life with this unhealthy sort of view of themselves.

As for original sin and sin in general: It is a huge mess. When we act irrationally and in less-than-human ways, it tends to affect those around us in ways we couldn't have imagined. Any attempts to clean that up and make sin look nice and rational and orderly seems, to me, to just completely contradict our lived experience. Life is a mess. When we act poorly, we make it even messier, and when we act well, (especially in communion with each other), things clean up a little bit.

[robvalue]

Okay, do you think sin is a real thing?

I think it isn't, it's a man-made concept. It's often fallaciously equivocated as being both immoral (harmful to people) and something God doesn't approve of.

It seems to me that if sin is "real", then it's all in the mind of God. He's keeping tally. I don't see how it can be any other way. Why he would feel the need to keep tally, I don't know. How anything could upset him, I don't know.

I suppose people could think it's an actual thing that permeates our bodies. I think I've heard someone say that before. But there's no evidence of course for this. Even if this is the case, God has presumably designed things this way.

[Ignorant]

Okay, do you think sin is a real thing?

I think it isn't, it's a man-made concept. It's often fallaciously equivocated as being both immoral (harmful to people) and something God doesn't approve of.

If sin is real, then it's all in the mind of God. He's keeping tally. I don't see how it can be any other way.

I suppose people could think it's an actual thing that permeates our bodies, I suppose. I think I've heard someone say that before. But there's no evidence of course for this.

Before I answer, would you mind sharing what you think sin is (i.e. what is the thing that you think is a man-made concept)?

[robvalue]

Sure. It's a list of actions that someone comes up with, which are meant to represent things God doesn't want you to do. If you do one of them, you "sin". So you've broken those rules, nothing more.