[split] Peanut Gallery Commentary-and the drama over the nudity thread continues

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...]equal treatment does not necessarily mean fair.

Quoted for truth!

[...]first of all, the concept of fairness is not the same as the concept of sameness. And so when Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," he did not mean "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are clones."

Source of quote: https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_...anguage=en

ETA: Fixed URL.

It's a good thing no one was arguing that all people are the same, then.

This is exactly why this conversation is so goddamned frustrating. It's almost as if you're deliberately missing the point.

[Joods]

Yall have turned this thread into something other than what it was intended. I would suggest all these posts be moved to another more relevant thread because honestly, all of this is taking away from the true nature of this thread entirely, and really, the shit doesn't belong here.

[Losty]

Quoted for truth!


Source of quote: https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_...anguage=en

ETA: Fixed URL.

It's a good thing no one was arguing that all people are the same, then.

This is exactly why this conversation is so goddamned frustrating. It's almost as if you're deliberately missing the point.

So...no one was arguing that everyone should be treated the same?
Every time someone gets close to figuring out what the actual point we are supposed to address is I get so excited. Yeeee...oh nope that's not it either. Hmmpf

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's a good thing no one was arguing that all people are the same, then.

This is exactly why this conversation is so goddamned frustrating. It's almost as if you're deliberately missing the point.

So...no one was arguing that everyone should be treated the same?
Every time someone gets close to figuring out what the actual point we are supposed to address is I get so excited. Yeeee...oh nope that's not it either. Hmmpf

No, if you reread what I replied to, you'll see that the quote addresses the state of being of people ("And so when Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," he did not mean "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are clones." [emphasis added])

I certainly wasn't arguing that men and women are exactly the same, and that makes that quote pretty irrelevant.

[Edwardo Piet]

@ Thump

Almost as if I'm deliberately missing the point? I may feel you're still missing my point, Thump, but I would never think it deliberate. We obviously disagree and are both trying to explain our points but just because we don't end up agreeing that the other person's point is stronger than our own it doesn't mean either one of us is failing to understand.

You may find it frustrating, I do not. I'm used to trying to explain my point over and over, it's what I'm like, lol. Hell, if that frustrated me I'd be frustrated very often. But I'm not I'm super happy very often and I consider it routine to explain myself over and over. In disagreements one party rarely goes away having their mind changed by the other party. But that's okay.

I'm sorry if it frustrates you, I'll try to shut up. I can shut up generally but I find it hard to resist responding when something is mentioned. When Whatev brought it up asking about it I struggled to not reply all over again.

I am honestly very sorry if I have added to your frustration, and I am sorry that you feel it's almost as if I am deliberately ignoring your point. I assure you I'm not and I'm sorry if it frustrated you. Really. I don't like to cause frustration to anyone, especially to people I like.

[Joods]

Annnnd post 2902 just goes over everyone's heads.

[Edwardo Piet]

No, if you reread what I replied to, you'll see that the quote addresses the state of being of people ("And so when Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal," he did not mean "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are clones." [emphasis added])

I certainly wasn't arguing that men and women are exactly the same, and that makes that quote pretty irrelevant.

Steven Pinker's point when he quoted Thomas Jefferson was that sameness is not the same concept as fairness.

My point is that because sameness is not the same concept as fairness: treating men and women the same is not the same as treating them fairly. If we treat them the same by treating them both unfairly that's doubling the unfairness because treating the same is not the same as treating fairly.

[Whateverist]

Annnnd post 2902 just goes over everyone's heads.

Abandon ship.  If you want to have a particular conversation, rephrase a sharper question in a new thread.  It's your only hope.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Al, I get your point, but again, the idea the people are the same is not what's driving my point, given that I don't subscribe to what is obviously a silly idea.

I'm sorry if my frustration leads me to speak out of turn. I certainly don't think anyone, you included, should stop posting their own views on the matter.

[Edwardo Piet]

Yeah I'm not saying anyone is suggesting women or men are the same though. I'm suggesting that treating people the same loses its value if it means treating everyone equally badly (like limiting their freedoms). Equally shitty is not equal because "equality"/"fairness" is a positive thing but "equally shitty" is a negative thing. When we speak of "fairness" or "equality" we mean more than literally equal, we mean equal in a just way. Unjust equality/fairness isn't exactly fair or any type of "equality" worth valuing.